Epsom College Failing at Oxbridge?

[HedgehogFan]

I have a young DS at EC and have seen a considerable decline of Oxbridge offers compared to other similar Independent Schools. Does anyone know why?

I think Oxbridge are doing so much outreach with state schools, more state pupils are successfully applying.

We have also noticed decline at local private schools in numbers being offered at Oxbridge, am not sure it’s unique just to EC.

CLFS have just got 10 in, Wellington and Marlborough (academically similar make up of students) get over 20 in each year.

There are some very bright pupils at EC. I think 12 had interviews this year and only 2 places offered both at Cambridge, none at Oxford for a second year I believe.

These decisions are truly marginal though. DC can literally just miss out. You cannot really compare other schools as each cohort is different. Excellent candidates will thrive at other elite universities. They are undoubtedly going to them. There are fewer places available for privately educated DC so it’s a sector issue. Definitely not just EC. Did you choose the school based on the success of other people’s DC? Hopefully not.

May be it's because some independent schools/colleges are out of touch with what's needed to be a successful Oxbridge applicant these days?

My dc went to a large state 6th form where anything from 10-20 students get Oxbridge places each year. This is in a cohort of about 700 students in Yr13, and that's considered to be good number

@Crummies
No. They are not out of touch. They have plenty of very bright DC but marginal decisions err towards state educated DC. That’s the only way to address the imbalance. So privately educated DC that might well have got a place 5-10 years ago, simply won’t now. Niche subjects are less affected and MFL and Classics, because fewer state pupils take these subjects.

There are fewer places available for privately educated DC so it’s a sector issue.

This isn't the case - more state school pupils are getting places because more are applying thanks to various outreach initiatives. The same number of places are available to all, but some privately educated students are losing out to better state school students who might not have applied in the past.

@Crummles

I think you may be right. Plenty of comparable schools consistently getting pupils in.

There does seem to be an obsession with sport and co curricular activities at EC and a mechanical approach to academics perhaps at the cost of encouraging and developing intellectual dexterity and critical thinking.

Hopefully the new head will be able to address any issues.

How to make sour grapes sweet?

My grapes are neither sweet or sour. My dc is a student at Oxford

Oxbridge needs to have less niche subjects which are only taught at grammar or independent schools

@Crummles
I didn’t mean you!

However, having read various articles on this by respected journalists, there is definitely ethnic background, social background, fsm and other aspects of disadvantage taken into account when places are given. If the candidates are very close, then extra points are given to disadvantaged students so a decision goes in their favour. These applicants may not be “better” but are seen as more deserving. Which has been agreed by most people as desirable., Oxford have provided their stats on disadvantaged students and how they nurture them, and then give them offers, so it must be true!!

I also agree that half the battle was to get them to apply in the first place. It is totally clear to everyone that there is an intention to alter admission stats. There are no more places available but since 1981, applications have quadrupled. So the private school DC now face greater challenges. But just picking out EC is just ridiculous given Eton has had a 50 % reduction and some state schools have gone from 5 to 50.

Most,if not all of that information from so called respected journalists is bollocks tbh

@TizerorFizz

No one is denying a reduction of places across the board from independent schools over the years. That was not what my query was about as outlined clearly above.

Please keep your ad feminam attacks to yourself along with your sanctimonious, unsubstantiated know it all opinions.

@HedgehogFan
Good God! No opinions allowed that don’t agree with you then! As my DD did get a place at Oxford from a private school without me speaking to Head - I’m taking the higher ground here! I was never ever thing to mention that though! Good luck to yours.

What exactly do you mean by 'deserving'? It sounds very patronising, also not very well informed.

Also - this is to Crummles - very, very few grammars teach Classics any more. State school students can apply to read Classics ab initio and a large sum of money has just been donated to further increase outreach in this area (my youngest DC is currently reading Classics II (the ab initio course) having come from a grammar which not only didn't teach Classics but also didn't teach Ancient History. That's by no means unusual in the grammar school sector.

How big is the cohort at Epsom College these days? Only two places is terrible, although I wouldn't have said the school was an academic powerhouse exactly, unless it's changed its character radically in recent years.

) the missing bracket.

It stands to reason that if Oxbridge are offering more places to state school applicants, and not increasing the total number of places, they must be offering fewer places to private school applicants. But its a bit dated to see Oxbridge as the only pinnacle of success - there are other excellent universities too (some of which even demand higher entry criteria than Oxford and Cambridge in some subjects).

OP, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Epsom College one of the ‘softer’ options compared to some of the other schools in the area? It’s known for a more ‘rounded’ experience eg. lots of sports etc, rather then academics? Certainly, the ones who went there from my DC’s school in SW London were the ‘middle of the class’ ones who didn’t get into KCS, Hampton, etc.

Having said this, I think many independents have noticed a drop in Oxbridge offers. Oxbridge colleges now have widening participation targets - they are aiming for around 80% / 20% independent / state cohorts to match what is the national picture at 16-18.

I can only really speak for C, but if applying from the independent sector now, you are best applying to a college that already meets that quota. Where they already have 80% of applicants from the state sector (quite a few colleges now do) they will not need to squeeze out independent sector candidates to meet WP targets. Have a look at the stats snd you will see success rates for independent school applicants are higher at these colleges, than others where they only get about 60% of applicants from the state sector.

Also, everything is now contextual. If applying from the (selective) independent sector, top grades will be considered the bare minimum. You will have had to have done a LOT of ‘super-curricular’ on top to be equally considered next to someone with similar grades from the state sector who has done nothing ‘super-curricular.’ Also, tutors use the Cambridge pool now to top-up their WP numbers so if from an independent, you are highly unlikely to be pulled out the pool.

For instance, the London selective independent mine go to still gets about 20-30 in per year (out of 200), but, in terms of Cambridge, nobody ever is offered a place from the pool and this has markedly been the case now for some years. They all either get in directly to their chosen college or not at all. And they have all done absolutely loads over and above the curriculum and all have at least 2 A predictions as a bare minimum for humanities subjects (3 A for sciences). If you ‘only’ have 1 A* and two As, the school tell you not to waste your time applying. They also push the EPQ as this is now recommended by Cambridge (not sure about Oxford) if the school offers it.

Maybe EC have not yet caught up with advising pupils in how much extra they need to do to present a competitive application? It is a lot these days.

Thanks @randomiser your final paragraph is what my query was about.

I understand EC is not an ‘academic powerhouse’ and wouldn’t expect the numbers to be similar to the likes of St Paul’s, Westminster, Kings etc (although interestingly some of the known academic schools struggle too especially the girls’ schools eg LEH, JAGS, GHS).

I would however expect them to be similar to COMPARABLE schools. It seems clear at the moment some are better at guiding their pupils to successful applications.

Super curricular could be one way in which they are failing. What do you mean by that? I’m not sure there is any at EC. Lessons are curriculum led and all other time in their lengthy school day is sport and co curricular focused. I get the impression that extra study for pleasure is actively discouraged and seen as unnecessary.

I don’t think there’s a programme for the academically more gifted for example. It appears to be a very homogenised approach.

Interestingly EC is up in the rankings for GCSE and A Level results but down for Oxbridge so grades do not appear to be the main issue. Their approach in other areas seems to be lacking.

@goodbyestranger

I think the cohort is around 140 with 2 going to Cantab and 0 to Oxon, which is the same as last year.

I think, as a PP said, there is more competition for each place if more bright state school pupils are applying than used to.

So... it sounds as though they're good at teaching, but maybe not the best at allowing /encouraging self-motivated students time and opportunity for extra engagement in their chosen fields? 'Supercurriculars' aren't/shouldn't be something the school can provide, as such.

Probably is getting harder. 11 went to Oxford and 9 to Cambridge (2021) from my daughter's older school North London Collegiate which is possibly similar to Winchester/Eton in terms of academic standard and kinds of girls who get in (most who apply don't etc) and Epsom C is not quite in that league.
My twins day private school had 100% failure rate for Oxbridge in their year (my boys did not try) and most boys are not white so I think that helps show they are looking for the brighter children at Oxbridge regardless of colour. None of my children tried (as did not think they would get in and it was too much work to do to apply) and nor did I. They have cousins there currently and another who just won a place (subject to this summer's exam grades) at a day private school in the North.

As someone who has 5 children coming out the other end it really isn't a huge deal if they don't get in. 3 of mine went to Bristol who are or are becoming lawyers. Given their exam grades at school are good and university I don't think it has made any difference to job prospects for them.

Oxbridge has always been a bit of a lottery - you have a go and if you are very keen you try again the next year after your grades are in hand and wherever you go Durham, Bristol etc there will be loads of Oxbridge rejects amongst you who do fine in good careers.