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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Epsom College Failing at Oxbridge?

289 replies

HedgehogFan · 05/02/2022 18:24

I have a young DS at EC and have seen a considerable decline of Oxbridge offers compared to other similar Independent Schools. Does anyone know why?

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 06/02/2022 11:56

OP, it was not a personal comment addressed to you.

If what the school are saying is 'there are some sparkling students, who are predicted straight A*, it's really surprising that they didn't get in', then that is naivety and implies that they are out of touch with the level of compettion at present.

There are ALWAYS sparkling students who don't get in - pretty much every applicant will be 'straight A* type', so that is inevitable. The question is, what is the school doing to enhance their applications over and above their grades?

HedgehogFan · 06/02/2022 11:57

@cantkeepawayforever

Those comments were made by another poster to whom I addressed my reply.

OP posts:
randomiser · 06/02/2022 11:59

I didn’t come on to get into a debate featuring your particular children goodbye. I was just giving a perspective based on what I am observing and hearing in certain London ‘superselectives’ right now. From talking to teachers in those schools who teach my kids. You can comment on your experience of your kids in this grammar by all means, but that is far from the full picture. Things have been very different even since your last one applied two years ago. How much of this is due to Covid exam cancellations (and the unis making less offers as a result) only time will tell. But it’s been a tough two years, that’s for sure. EC will not be the only school to have felt the brunt. Unis have been more cautious with offers across the board.

cakeambush · 06/02/2022 12:00

Gosh, imagine. You're fretting that you might not have been able to buy your child a place at one of the two universities you deem worthy. The horror.

goodbyestranger · 06/02/2022 12:02

Only 20/ 140 would suggest that the school is adising quite a few not to bother applying.

I've just looked at the 2020 leavers' destinations where the school records that 1% went to Oxford and 1% to.... Camrbidge (sic).

Not great :)

cantkeepawayforever · 06/02/2022 12:02

It sounds to me as if you are worried about the quality of education that your own child is getting, in the sense that you see Oxbridge as a possible destination for them but are unsure whether the school is best placed to achieve it?

How old are they, and what other options do you have? I think both Oxford and Cambridge look at where your child does GCSEs and takes this into account in terms of contextualising their grades, but the option of moving for 6th form is still open to you as long as your DC is not already in Y12?

If there ARE in Y12, then there is a lot you can do as a parent in terms of encouraging wide and deep interests that could be relevant, and in terms of 'interviewability' - if you have realised that it cannot be just down to the school, then that is probably a good thing at this point.

randomiser · 06/02/2022 12:04

But yes, totally agree that there is no such thing as ‘straight A* student so should get in.’ Nearly all applicants will be in this category and the fact is most of them will not get in. This is nothing new.

caranations · 06/02/2022 12:05

Gosh, how awful. Can't have the riff-raff getting into Oxbridge, can we?

cantkeepawayforever · 06/02/2022 12:05

However, there is NOTHING you can do to be absolutely CERTAIN that your child will be admitted. There are far more well-qualified applicants than there are places, so in the end it will come down to incredibly fine - and sometimes very random - margins.

goodbyestranger · 06/02/2022 12:06

randomiser my experience is a bit broader than you seem to imagine.

Also, you advertised yourself as being well informed by dint of having a single kid at Cambridge so I'm bound to say what I said in response, particularly when you were really rather dismissive.

FancySomeChips · 06/02/2022 12:07

I think it’s a wonderful sign of the path to equality! Well done Oxbridge, keep it up!

goodbyestranger · 06/02/2022 12:10

Yes, I certainly wouldn't shift school early if your DC is happy there OP - you say he's young. New HT might shake things up a bit anyhow.

goodbyestranger · 06/02/2022 12:10

Yes indeed keep it up Oxbridge!

HedgehogFan · 06/02/2022 12:11

@cantkeepawayforever

Yes that is essential what my initial point was. It would be nice to be in a school environment where Oxbridge was a realistic option. This doesn’t appear to be the case anymore at Epsom. I wondered why as other comparable schools still have success.

A move for 6th Form is a possibility.

OP posts:
AlexaShutUp · 06/02/2022 12:13

Oxbridge will be a realistic option if your ds is good enough, OP. Why not just let him get there on his own merit if he is, instead of trying to buy him advantages that aren't available to other kids?

cantkeepawayforever · 06/02/2022 12:16

It would be nice to be in a school environment where Oxbridge was a realistic option.

That's a very odd comment to make. My DCs went to the local comprehensive - one of them is now at C. Yes, there ARE schools - schools in highly deprived areas including seaside towns, for example - where there is no tradition of university entrance, let alone Oxbridge, and the barriers in front of an exceptionally able student are very high. However, it is very odd to be putting an expensive Home Counties private school into this bracket?

randomiser · 06/02/2022 12:17

Ok goodbye. You are the Omnipotent Omnipresent Oxbridge Oracle. As on all threads always and forever.

Good luck OP.

AlexaShutUp · 06/02/2022 12:18

@cantkeepawayforever

It would be nice to be in a school environment where Oxbridge was a realistic option.

That's a very odd comment to make. My DCs went to the local comprehensive - one of them is now at C. Yes, there ARE schools - schools in highly deprived areas including seaside towns, for example - where there is no tradition of university entrance, let alone Oxbridge, and the barriers in front of an exceptionally able student are very high. However, it is very odd to be putting an expensive Home Counties private school into this bracket?

Exactly!
cantkeepawayforever · 06/02/2022 12:20

I think what you possibly mean instead is 'a school that will ease the path of a decently able but not exceptional student into Oxbridge without any undue effort on the part of the student or parent, because that is what I thought I was paying for'.

You will have to decide whether to take your money elsewhere, to a school that you think might be able to do this instead. Or you and your child will have to put in some exceptional effort - and acknowledge that they are amongst a whole cohort of very bright kids who may or may not make it on the day, and this cannot be bypassed through money.

cantkeepawayforever · 06/02/2022 12:35

I can see that it is natural to feel disappointed, if you have perhaps chosen this school over others after entrance exams, based on the statistics that you knew at the time. You could feel that you have sent your child to this school above others on 'false pretences', and those other schools are now 'doing better' on what you see to be a key metric.

However
a) If your child is young, these statistics could well swing in the other direction over the intervening half decade.

b) Ultimately, no school can guarantee Oxbridge admission. All you and your child can do is work hard, be ambitious, seize opportunities with both hands and foster any specific interests wholeheartedly.

WombatChocolate · 06/02/2022 12:42

I think some people see a string of good GCSEs or some solid A Level predictions as making their kids or the cohort if a school Oxbridge material.

In the last couple of years with grade inflation, huge numbers have these behind them, and far in excess of places available. Many of these kids are decent, solid students but they are not Oxbridge material. Most schools like EC don’t have large numbers or even many at all who are actually Oxbridge material.

The reality is, that perhaps independent schools themselves can do less now and make less difference than they used to. Now more state school students know about Oxbridge and apply, the field is bigger and therefore the competition harder and so those who are genuinely good more likely to get the places, rather than just those who are decent and went to a school that pushes Oxbridge.

In my experience over many years, the students who get the places are those with a genuine passion for their subject, which is actively displayed, as well as stellar GCSE and A Level results. This isn’t the many students who have great GCSEs but who would never dream of choosing freely to read books on their subject of interest, or visit relevant sites, or engage behind the curriculum.

In the past, when far fewer state school students knew Oxbridge was even an option, applications were lower. Independently educated kids who had been told constantly they were great and who had self belief were the bulk of the applicants, and along with those who were brilliant, some who were just decent got by because the work the school did with them to boost their wider reading and prep them for interview wad good enough.

But now, with more applications per place for most courses, quality will out. Quality isn’t created by being decent but that it all, but having been to an expensive school and being pushed through a programme.

Lots of independent schools are a bit selective, but actually not very selective in reality. There is an entrance exam and some don’t get offers, but most do. In areas if the south-east and LOndon, where there are so many schools, there is a real pecking order, and the brightest students get concentrated in certain schools. Those schools will have greater Oxbridge success because they simply have the brightest students. Even they are finding it harder and the more ‘marginal’ cases who would have got in before don’t now. So, for the schools which are a level or two down (and that will be the majority of schools which are still considered desirable and successful) you would now expect to see fewer Oxbridge successes, whatever the school does. The school isn’t doing anything wrong, it’s just that their impact is less, when competition is so much greater.

As others have said, EC doesn’t take particularly clever children. Yes, their exam grades might be good and better. Some of that is due to grade inflation and some due to good teaching to the exams…..but don’t confuse those good grades with being really genuinely very clever. With clear focused teaching and reasonable ability, many many children can get an excellent set of exam results and not be Oxbridge material.

But parents are deluded. They ignore the fact their child has never shown any genuin interest in a subject, and prefers to spend their time on YouTube or messaging friends and doing the minimum of work to get by….or that they are a hard grafter who does well because they follow the techniques given to them, rather than having an independence if thought. These parents think their fees entitle them to the school ‘polishing’ their child to a level that they get the Oxbridge offer and that if they don’t, the school has done something wrong. But it hasn’t. No doubt the school has run an Oxbridge programme and encouraged the child to do the reading and engaging which has never come naturally to them. Some of those kids will have tried hard to engage whilst others won’t, be they essentially remain the children they were. The school cannot change them. And that’s very disappointing if you’ve paid £25k a year with the belief that the fees entitled you to Oxbridge success, or that the fees mean the school should be able to get anyone who is pretty decent in. It’s galling to think that people who haven’t paid and who haven’t had the programmes and push get the places. Surely it must be the independent school that has somehow failed, because it simply cannot be that their child simply isn’t up to it. So people look to ‘blame’ the school, or to decide that it can be explained by positive discrimination in favour of certain state school students.

The future will be that many Independents see their Oxbridge numbers drop. Those that used to get 40 in might drop to 30 or 25. Huge numbers only ever got 10 in, even when they were considered desirable, academic schools. Their figures may well drop to 5. Those that are actually very selective might well be on 2 or 3. It’s to be expected. No doubt lots of parents will be disappointed and many will blame the school and many blame the system. It’s a decline in the influence of privilege to represent a more (if not fully) meritocratic and fair system. That will never please parents who are paying. And I speak as a parent who is paying.

goodbyestranger · 06/02/2022 12:53

randomiser I can’t decide whether that comment directed at me is more childish than peevish or more peevish than childish. It’s certainly very silly.

jeanne16 · 06/02/2022 13:02

No one here has mentioned that Cambridge started their own entrance exams in 2017. I think the results from these carry far more weight than the gcse and A level grades, where differentiation is now impossible as I imagine all their applicants have the top grades.

Daisysway · 06/02/2022 13:19

My dd attended a very average independent school up until 2020 where the HT definitely took the holistic approach to exams/education. One or two were successful in taking up Oxbridge places each year sometimes 3 (maximum) cohort small under 60. In 2021 they totally bucked the trend with 5 places taken up, change of head seems to have made a massive difference ( the new head came from a highly successful International school). So, its not all average independent schools that are struggling and dds old school was very broadly selective (bums on seats more important).

cantkeepawayforever · 06/02/2022 13:41

I think one result of the scenario WombatChocolate analyses so well is that numbers from an individual school will be much 'lumpier' - rather than a school sending a predictable 5 or 10 or 20, these numbers will jump around a lot each year.

DD's old comprehensive has sent 0-3 students to Oxbridge each year - 0 or 1 probable most common. 7 got in for Autumn 2021, with I think 2-3 more who had moved for the highly pandemic-interrupted 6th form and therefore whose foundations had been laid at GCSE.

I think they're down to a much more normal 0-3 this year, and I expect that 'lumpiness' to continue, as exactly who will be admitted becomes harder and harder to predict

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