Cambridge offer - DS might want to turn it down

[AndyFloss]

DS has a Cambridge offer. He's delighted, but he is now starting to consider whether he wants to go down this path of unbelievable pressure.

If he commits to getting in, he'll be under massive pressure to achieve the required grade for 4 A levels PLUS the step exam (Maths).

This is making him think that although he could really push himself to do it and he has the capability, it is possible that once in, he'll be under unbearable pressure for 3 years. And all for what?

He potentially risks getting a lower grade in his degree, whilst if he goes somewhere like Warwick, also good for Maths, he could do very well and also have a nicer life.

Of course he then goes back full circle thinking that if he rejects a Cambridge offer, he'll regret it for the rest of his life.

I'd love to hear opinions please.

The Op hasn't been back on this thread.

You are so right, @OhYouBadBadKitten, and you have gently alluded to this before. We have certainly given her a lot to think about and it’s possibly been overwhelming. But TBF even early on there was a great diversity of opinion and she wasn’t weighing in - her prerogative, of course. I hope she has found the thread generally thoughtful if not as straightforward as a stressed parent might have quite reasonably hoped.

I had hoped she would PM you. On the basis of our PMs I imagine your DD has a very thoughtful view of C and its pros and cons for different types of students. (I mean personalities, study styles, etc)

I was very happy to chat by pm, if they had wished and the offer still stands. I can only offer the parental impression of one mathmos viewpoint of course but she is very open about her and other experiences.
I'd share them more here, but I respect her privacy and check what she is happy for me to share in advance of posting. We are both aware that Cambridge maths can seem like a bit of a mystery from the outside.

@AndyFloss

DS has a Cambridge offer. He's delighted, but he is now starting to consider whether he wants to go down this path of unbelievable pressure.

If he commits to getting in, he'll be under massive pressure to achieve the required grade for 4 A levels PLUS the step exam (Maths).

This is making him think that although he could really push himself to do it and he has the capability, it is possible that once in, he'll be under unbearable pressure for 3 years. And all for what?

He potentially risks getting a lower grade in his degree, whilst if he goes somewhere like Warwick, also good for Maths, he could do very well and also have a nicer life.

Of course he then goes back full circle thinking that if he rejects a Cambridge offer, he'll regret it for the rest of his life.

I'd love to hear opinions please.

Turning it down would be a mistake. You always go to the best place you can. It's a lot easier to transfer from Cambridge to someplace else, not so easy if you decide you want to transfer in to Cambridge. Doing Maths at Cambridge is IMPRESSIVE. Cambridge is a world-class uni. Warwick?

Warwick is def world class in Maths. Major quants and technical employers and doctoral programmes world wide recognise this. Outside of these specialised sectors it possibly does not have the name recognition it deserves.

I think all of this is part of the dilemma

Thank you everyone. I have been reading every reply and keep returning to this thread which I have found most enlightening. All comments, opinions and observations gratefully received.

@AndyFloss - hopefully he'll come to a decision that he is happy with.

@poetryandwine

Warwick is def world class in Maths. Major quants and technical employers and doctoral programmes world wide recognise this. Outside of these specialised sectors it possibly does not have the name recognition it deserves.

I think all of this is part of the dilemma

Yes, I agree, that is the dilemma of many schools that are great in one area, but do not have an overall halo of world-class status. If a student is sure that she/he is going to stay in that particular subject area during their career, then they can confidently go to a specialist program at any university. However, if the student wants to do something different then it's a lot easier to simply say, "I went to Stanford or Harvard" and not worry about explaining to someone that your lesser known school is world-class in the one subject you happened to study.

@FlyingSquid

exposing and normalising one’s ignorance, for getting UGs to open up about what academic help they need

Mm. DD (Oxbridge fresher) has been startled by how reluctant her fellow undergrads are to say anything that might be wrong during tutorials/supervisions. She reckons that comes from fear of mockery at school if ‘the clever one’ gets an answer wrong. (As far as I can gather, she’s more likely to blurt out whatever comes into her randomly well-stocked head, and cheerfully retract it again later if necessary.

No one expected her to get an Oxbridge offer. She’s not a top-grades-all-round type. So she doesn’t have that baggage - she knows she’s middle/bottom of the pack there and is actually enjoying the sometimes brutal feedback.

Did she get a diversity offer or is she doing an unpopular subject?

Going to Cambridge has opened doors for me throughout my professional career. I think it would be mad to turn it out because he’s scared of pressure and hard work (barring MH problems).

Also uni names don’t really matter for STEM subjects. Technical interviews are the same for everyone. Warwick is highly regarded.

Good to hear from you, @AndyFloss.

I want to apologise to you and other parents on the thread for my use of the slightly harsh phrase normalising ignorance. Yes, we want UG scientists to get comfortable with the idea that they are actually just beginning to learn about their vast fields. It is expected to be difficult and confusing at times and would be much easier for all of us if they would use the many resources, including the time their lecturers and advisors put aside to help them, on offer. I agree with @sendsummer that we don't want to encourage intellectual dependence but the general problem is quite the opposite: UGs will go to great lengths to disguise their difficulties - from themselves as well as others, I think. A culture (such as Oxbridge supervisions) that makes these difficulties seem normal is doing a great service IMO. But normalising ignorance perhaps wasn't the best phrase for this setting.

I have been thinking recently about how hard it is to predict PhD outcomes in my field from students' application packages. The most brilliant UGs may do indifferent work and there are also a number of happy surprises. My working hypothesis is that comfort with uncertainty and struggle may play a role we don't know how to take into account.

@sanbeiji a diversity offer? What on Earth do you mean? It's more likely the student performed brilliantly and instinctively in the interview and showed bags of potential. She'll have had to achieve the standard offer. Everyone does.

@sanbeiji Why would you assume either of those things? Students with a real interest in their subject, aptitude in that area and who demonstrate that they will be receptive to feedback and suited to the style of teaching are the ones that get offers. Some of them will be all rounders who have always been top of the class in everything, but a good number will have a slightly more mixed set of grades.

S'OK, I'm not offended by either suggestion. It's a less competitive subject than maths, for sure.

She probably bludgeoned them with random thoughts until they gave in. Her favourite part of a supervision is to make the prof lean back in their chair, steeple their fingers and go, 'Hmmm, in-ter-esting idea.'

IMO he should go for it. DD1 is at Oxford doing stem subject. There is a high workload but as she says everyone is in the same situation . They do still seem to have a lot of time to enjoy themselves too and the whole set up blows the RG uni her brother went to out of the water. She has a friend at Cambridge who also loves it.

@FlyingSquid the way you write about your DD really made me smile. She sounds fabulous and I think her have a go attitude will get her far; Oxbridge admissions struck lucky there!

It does open doors which don't exist for others

The actual distribution of students to supervisors/tutors can vary quite a bit, and both Cambridge and Oxford do solos.

State school pupils can now integrate very well at any college; it's not like it used to be. I'd personally love to see even more state school intake, but at least it seems (broadly speaking) to be going in the right direction for equity. I'm concerned some replies are describing Oxbridge of quite a few years back!

@AndyFloss,

I was thinking more about your original post. It might help your DS come to a decision if he could better articulate what kind of pressure concerns him. So here are three questions he might find useful:

1. What is the intrinsic workload difference between C and W? In other words, if a student is fully engaged, how different would it be? Some PPs have indicated not much.

DS might consider posting this question to The Student Room.

1. If the intrinsic workloads are similar, why is he worried about more pressure at C? The competition is probably stiffer but against this there is the universal prestige of the C degree. A number of PPs have commented on how it has opened doors for them. Which way the scales lean is highly personal.

1. Is DS worried about the supervision system? That does require students to develop robustness but it is an incomparable gift. To the extent that W is less pressured because no one is checking up on you every week, I take the point that this gives a better chance to develop independence, but in practice I think for most if it is less pressured this is because they can get behind, fool themselves about what they don’t know,etc.

(This is assuming similar workloads.)

There is no pressure like coming to the end of term and realising you are about to be examined on a load of half digested maths or science.

@Innocenta

The actual distribution of students to supervisors/tutors can vary quite a bit, and both Cambridge and Oxford do solos.

State school pupils can now integrate very well at any college; it's not like it used to be. I'd personally love to see even more state school intake, but at least it seems (broadly speaking) to be going in the right direction for equity. I'm concerned some replies are describing Oxbridge of quite a few years back!

I agree with this. DD is from a state school (albeit selective) and most of her friends are also from state schools (I've no idea what type) though there are some from very posh indies as well. She only knows this from general chitchat - there has been very little discussion about where they've all come from. On supervisions - she finds them incredibly simulating and interesting. She's visited friends at other unis and says she knows she'd have been happy had she gone elsewhere but, knowing what she does now, she'd think she would have missed out on a lot.

My brother turned down a Cambridge offer for Maths about 10years ago. He went to another high standing red brick uni. He's never regretted his decision. He would have thrived in Cambridge, very academic, very focused, very driven. But for some reason it wasn't what he wanted and he loved his time at the alternative university. Came top of his year 3 years running.

@Ethelandbob I'm so glad your DD is having a positive experience!

I went to Oxford for BA and Warwick for MSC. I’d say similar in terms of pressure but very very different feel. Warwick is a campus university in a fairly mediocre city. Oxford / Cambridge are, imo, much nicer places to live. Warwick very lecture based, Oxbridge more self-taught and tutorial based, with some lectures of course. Personally for the experience I’d go Cambridge. But both are excellent.

@AndyFloss

DS has a Cambridge offer. He's delighted, but he is now starting to consider whether he wants to go down this path of unbelievable pressure.

If he commits to getting in, he'll be under massive pressure to achieve the required grade for 4 A levels PLUS the step exam (Maths).

This is making him think that although he could really push himself to do it and he has the capability, it is possible that once in, he'll be under unbearable pressure for 3 years. And all for what?

He potentially risks getting a lower grade in his degree, whilst if he goes somewhere like Warwick, also good for Maths, he could do very well and also have a nicer life.

Of course he then goes back full circle thinking that if he rejects a Cambridge offer, he'll regret it for the rest of his life.

I'd love to hear opinions please.

Would your DS ever work outside of the UK? I think outside of the UK, the Cambridge name will sell much easier than Warwick.