Cambridge offer - DS might want to turn it down

[AndyFloss]

DS has a Cambridge offer. He's delighted, but he is now starting to consider whether he wants to go down this path of unbelievable pressure.

If he commits to getting in, he'll be under massive pressure to achieve the required grade for 4 A levels PLUS the step exam (Maths).

This is making him think that although he could really push himself to do it and he has the capability, it is possible that once in, he'll be under unbearable pressure for 3 years. And all for what?

He potentially risks getting a lower grade in his degree, whilst if he goes somewhere like Warwick, also good for Maths, he could do very well and also have a nicer life.

Of course he then goes back full circle thinking that if he rejects a Cambridge offer, he'll regret it for the rest of his life.

I'd love to hear opinions please.

DottyHarmer I will admit to a moment of spluttering "but ... but ... I went to Cambridge" when I realised I couldn't tell them that. But then I gave my head a wobble and remembered that I have a daughter who is showing every sign of being a late developer. Her GCSEs are quite dodgy, but she's getting into her stride at A level. She will not (and doesn't want to) go to a "top" university. But I have a hunch that when she finds her groove she'll be great at what she does.

So I'd love it if future employers assessed her for who she is, not where she's been.

And I'll also know that if I get the job, it will be because I have the right skills now - not because I somehow managed to persuade Cambridge to take me 30 years ago.

If he meets it he can still change his mind at the last minute and his insurance (or indeed other unis) would still have him.

Think me as rude as you like if I say Once more for those of you at the back..., but no, his insurance offer disappears if he meets the conditions of his firm. On results day, you don't get to choose between the two. And if his insurance place was on a well-oversubscribed course, then the chance of a place being available through Clearing is fairly remote.

Swapping firm and insurance may be possible within a short 'cooling off' period after entering responses on Track, but not after early July - and since the decision doesn't have to be made until sometime in June, it is better to take the time to consider the issue properly before committing, rather than whacking in a decision too soon on the (almost certainly false) assumption that a particular change will be available once exam results are received...

Take cambridge. It really does open doors. And if he doesn’t like it in the end, he can switch (I’ve seen it done).

DS is year 13. Hasn’t applied to Cambridge despite being encouraged to by school and having a close family member who went recently and loved it. Tbh I don’t think it would suit him. Neither I nor DH did Oxbridge and we’ve done pretty well. I’m interested, though, is Warwick just seen as an Oxbridge reject place? Location wouldn’t suit DS hence not applying but I didn’t realise it was perceived like that I don’t imagine Warwick Uni loves that

He may regret not going, but that is a ways down the road.

Would he regret not trying?;

( as in, not trying in his A levels/ entrance exam)

DP went to Cambridge, albeit a long time ago. He was there for 6 years studying a science based subject.

His view has always been that Oxbridge isn’t the holy grail, it isn’t for everyone and that choosing the right college is just as important as the right course. Colleges differ enormously in their culture and in the demographic of students they attract. For example, a student from a normal family who went to a normal state school might feel out of place at Trinity or Magdalene, an Etonian might feel out of place at Girton or Churchill.

Avon, it depends on course. Warwick is very strong in maths, and recognised as such. Up there will Cambridge, Imperial and Oxford.

I went to Oxford and the 'pressure' was not universal, and from what I could observe, almost always self-imposed. If someone is normally relaxed, I don't think oxbridge could turn them into a pressure cooker.

Sounds like he's having a wobble worrying about what ifs rather than not wanting to. As you well know it's competitive to get in and they obviously can tell he has the potential to do well on the course, I think he'd regret not going.

My DD graduated last year from C in NatSci and is now studying for a PhD there. I get the whole "wobble when you get an offer" thing. DD's was from a college we hadn't even heard of before so she was in a bit of a panic. What we did was book a B&B and go to visit in February half term. We dropped into the college which had made her the offer, and whilst they couldn't easily show us any 1st year student rooms, we were made most welcome by the admissions staff, porters and catering team. DD bumped into someone from the year above her at school who showed us his room. She ended up loving it, got the grades and had a fantastic time. So much so that when applying for her PhD and she had the pick of all the other colleges, elected to remain there. Funnily enough, her insurance offer was more problematic as, having accepted it, as results day drew nearer, she wanted to pull out of it.

OP, your DS doesn't have to make a decision now. If you can, why not visit as an offer holder? If you can go in a school half term break (ie when undergrads are around), you get to see what it's really like. Give your lad time to think it all over. If he uses Twitter, there are feeds for every subject run by undergrads and they are really useful for questions and general information.

People find different things stressful. The workload and work might be hard at Cambridge but a lot of other stresses that other students at other universities must be much less. Cambridge is, obviously, a wealthy university and it's facilities and staff are incredible.

For example, I'm guessing that Cambridge students don't have to bag a table in the library at 8am if they want to work there for the day because that's what you have to do at some Unis especially at exam time.
I don't know the ins and outs but I think a lot of Cambridge students can live in University accommodation for the whole of their degree. Finding accommodation and flat mates is something many students find stressful and time consuming.

Again, I'm guessing, but I imagine the courses at Cambridge are very well run and students can be confident that their lecturers will be competent. My kids went to good Unis but there were areas of their courses that were poorly run. They were regularly messed around with last minute changes to their courses and lecturers. Coursework was often not marked and it could be difficult to get help with work.

As everyone know less wealthy universities are under pressure to increase revenue and student numbers on some courses have blown up an to unmanageable size. I suspect that hasn't happened at Cambridge.

Im sure the final year exams at Cambridge are extremely taxing but at least students aren't generally going to be too worried that they might find it impossible to find a job. Employment rates from Cambridge aren't too shabby.
So it depends what type of things you find stressful really.

@LetsGoParty correct, I can’t be 100% certain about other colleges but at my college and DP’s (different) college everyone stayed in college accommodation the three years, with accommodation available for any years after that if you wanted it but some people choosing to find houses. And there are so many libraries in Cambridge that I never struggled to find a spot - you have your college library, department libraries and the UL.
College life is also less stressful in that you can get food there rather than worrying about cooking yourself something which isn’t an option at other universities outside of catered halls.

I’m interested, though, is Warwick just seen as an Oxbridge reject place?

Absolutely not.

@mimos4

I went to Oxford and the 'pressure' was not universal, and from what I could observe, almost always self-imposed. If someone is normally relaxed, I don't think oxbridge could turn them into a pressure cooker.

I totally disagree about the pressure being self-imposed, the workload can be insane I did an arts subject and my friends doing similar subjects at very good universities (Durham, UEA, etc) did about 2-3 essays per term. Most terms I had to do 2 essays a week, and translations and language prep on top. The tutors were very old fashioned and seemingly not used to having state school students around and it felt like we were often left to flounder. The stress of it all honestly made me ill and I was by no means the only one.

In my honest opinion, it’s a very sink or swim environment. Robust people with good mental health who can withstand the pressure will get a LOT from it and come out stronger. People who are a little more vulnerable for whatever reason can often struggle and the support (when I was there) just wasn’t there.

Also on the organisation front- when I was there, the tutor in charge of my course “didn’t do emails”. If you wanted to contact him you had to put a note in his pigeon hole and wait for him to write back. This was the early 2010s. Where I sat in his tutorials, I could see someone’s unmarked masters thesis under a pile on his coffee table. Didn’t move for 8 weeks. Lecture notes weren’t put online, so you had to photocopy someone else’s if there weren’t enough or you missed a lecture. I went to a redbrick later on and it was seriously like travelling 50 years forward in time.

It’s all part of the experience and makes it feel more Hogwarts-y I suppose (why send a text when you can send a sodding owl) but it doesn’t half make life harder than it needs to be.

Agree with @ErrolTheDragon that Warwick is recognised by employers and PG institutions worldwide as a top School of Maths.

At Oxbridge your tutor assignment does matter. The primary tutor for my DH was also famous for neglecting to mark. Or prepare. And, TBF, for his research brilliance. But times have changed and student satisfaction at C Maths is very high so I imagine this kind of thing is less of a problem now.

@AvonCallingBarksdale

DS is year 13. Hasn’t applied to Cambridge despite being encouraged to by school and having a close family member who went recently and loved it. Tbh I don’t think it would suit him. Neither I nor DH did Oxbridge and we’ve done pretty well. I’m interested, though, is Warwick just seen as an Oxbridge reject place? Location wouldn’t suit DS hence not applying but I didn’t realise it was perceived like that I don’t imagine Warwick Uni loves that

It's not. Out of my friends just one (DH) had been rejected from Oxford. Tbh I think he was a casualty of the 'rejecting private school pupils' scandal that was happening at the time.

I'll take this thread into account when it comes to deciding on firming up.

Her life her choice. You can advise but it's her decision.

Sounds like we did similar subjects around a similar time @riotlady - sorry to hear you struggled. Sometimes I just handed in half an essay or an essay plan and there were never any repercussions!

I’m a lecturer at university. Accept and go if he gets the grades. He can always move to another university after first term/year. If he doesn’t get the grades, he hasn’t lost anything as he will go to his insurance.

But notanotherusername it is a bit more complicated than that. 50% of maths acceptances will miss the STEP grades required. So the choice is either another highly ranked maths course (Warwick) which will also have high grade/STEP requirements, but who tend not to over offer in the same way. Or play safe and go for a lower ranked course, meaning he will be somewhere that is less challenging and cover less material than he is capable of, and therefore be further back in the queue in terms of employers looking for quants.

The issue here is the Cambridge approach, and the fact that 50% of those with offers will be disappointed come July. This will add real pressure to applicants, which is what OPs DC seems to be feeling. Those applying next year or later might consider the greater certainty offered by Oxford.

What subject do you lecture in? Does it require STEP?

Exactly @Needmoresleep
When DS received his Cambridge offer it was after an admissions test. He's already jumped that hoop. Same with most other Cambridge subjects and all Oxford subjects. Maths at Cambridge is unique in exerting this pressure at A level time.
I do get where OP is coming from.
And the natural second choice is Warwick which also requires STEP tho at a lower score generally.
I don't envy OP's son. Lovely to get an offer but what pressure!

It's worth bearing in mind that a 2 in a single STEP paper is significantly less harder than a 1,1 across two papers.

STEP is a brutal system. Waiting for those grades to come in was frankly torment, but if you asked dd if it was worth it, then absolutely.

I totally disagree about the pressure being self-imposed, the workload can be insane
I did an arts subject and my friends doing similar subjects at very good universities (Durham, UEA, etc) did about 2-3 essays per term. Most terms I had to do 2 essays a week, and translations and language prep on top. The tutors were very old fashioned and seemingly not used to having state school students around and it felt like we were often left to flounder. The stress of it all honestly made me ill and I was by no means the only one.

In my honest opinion, it’s a very sink or swim environment. Robust people with good mental health who can withstand the pressure will get a LOT from it and come out stronger. People who are a little more vulnerable for whatever reason can often struggle and the support (when I was there) just wasn’t there.

I would agree with the above.

I turned up and we were sat down by the senior tutor who told us "You all think you're clever - you're not". My DoS told me if I was awake and not working for more than an hour a day I wasn't working hard enough. The stress made me really pretty unwell.

BUT - I learnt a huge amount, I made great friends, and I refused to allow myself to be cowed by it in spite of how ill it made me. I went to dinners, I rowed, I did tech stuff for events, I was in a musical, I did college "politics". And a hell of a lot of work - and learnt a huge amount.

I really wasn't a well lady through my degree, and I did struggle a lot with the lack of adjustments to be able to cope with it: no online lecture notes etc, but I think hopefully the pandemic will have changed all that.

I enjoy my degree a lot more in the rose tinted light of the retrospective than I did at the time. But at the same time, I know now I really can do pretty much anything. I've been a hell of a lot more stressed than during my degree in bits of my job I have done during Covid, but I have been able to cope better as well, I think because of it - and because it taught me (after the fact primarily) to really make sure I put sensible boundaries in place.

I think the other thing which is unusual about Cambridge is that it really is for life - I can still go for dinner a few times a year, I can stop in college any time I'm in town and sit down, leave bags in the plodge etc.

This is a very long ramble which doesn't really give you an answer - but I don't think it's unreasonable of your son to worry. My brother refused to apply after he saw what it did to me, applied to various well regarded but not hugely pressured unis and then proceeded to regularly score in the 90s on exams while having time to party. But I'm still not sure if I would choose not to go if I could have my time again, knowing what I know now.