Cambridge offer - DS might want to turn it down

[AndyFloss]

DS has a Cambridge offer. He's delighted, but he is now starting to consider whether he wants to go down this path of unbelievable pressure.

If he commits to getting in, he'll be under massive pressure to achieve the required grade for 4 A levels PLUS the step exam (Maths).

This is making him think that although he could really push himself to do it and he has the capability, it is possible that once in, he'll be under unbearable pressure for 3 years. And all for what?

He potentially risks getting a lower grade in his degree, whilst if he goes somewhere like Warwick, also good for Maths, he could do very well and also have a nicer life.

Of course he then goes back full circle thinking that if he rejects a Cambridge offer, he'll regret it for the rest of his life.

I'd love to hear opinions please.

[MadameMinimes]

I also think he should take the Cambridge offer. In the days of £9000+ fees I think there is a lot to be said for the value-for money offered by Oxford and Cambridge. The level of intensive small group and 1-2-1 teaching and the doors that the degrees open later on down the line give you so much more “bang for your buck”. Warwick is a great option to have as an insurance and if that’s where he ends up then it will be more than fine, but I’d encourage him to think very carefully before dismissing the Cambridge offer. Having a high offer to aim for also helps y13s keep momentum to the end. It’s hard to keep motivated when you know you don’t actually need the top grades.

[ThreeLocusts]

I used to teach at Cambridge. Hated it. A big part of the problem was that I lacked the massive sense of entitlement of many of my colleagues. Tons of toxic people around.

So your son is right to take mental health and quality of life into account. That said, if he can adopt a sort of 'armchair anthropologist' attitude to all the self-congratulatory ritual and chooses his friends well, it could also be very interesting.

Maybe go on the understanding that he can switch if he hates it? Not sure if he could join Warwick in the second year, may be worth finding out.

[Oblomov22]

Cambridge firm, Warwick insurance.

[sm40]

Mr DH has a maths degree from Oxford and I have a science degree from there. Lots of work but never felt any more pressure than a levels. I assume if he's got in he's got a good work ethic. My dh did realise he would need to step up a revision fear to get a first and wanted to do other things so got a 2.1. I was never in that position but still got a 2.1.

As for which uni, does his college offer accommodation for the whole time? Where is it? These are things that would swing it for me! Also course. Back in the day some Oxford courses didn't cover the same stuff/options as other courses so just check it is want you want to do. A few people just went because it was Oxford only to
Realise the actual course was wrong for them.

[hellcatspangle]

Are the required grades much different at the other top unis? When DS applied a few years ago, required grades for Cambridge were A* AA, but they were the same for his other two top choices (sciences not maths)

[AChickenCalledDaal]

Is he loving the STEP preparation? I think that's quite a good indicator of whether he's going to love the course enough to thrive. And STEP is also likely to be the biggest challenge in terms of grades. If he's preparing well for STEP, his Maths and FM will probably fall into place.

Conversely, if he's finding STEP unpleasant and stressful, that might be an indicator that he's not going to love the course.

He does also need to be really sure he's got an insurance offer that he'd be really happy to follow through on. For perspective, my eldest had a Cambridge maths offer. They accepted, got 4 x A* but missed their STEP grade and went to St Andrews. Now in second year and absolutely flying academically. All the evidence is that they genuinely are an immensely capable Mathematician. They have no regrets and say that STEP was a very positive experience. But it is a very high bar and a lot of very talented people don't make it.

[ErrolTheDragon]

He's very sensible to be thinking seriously about his options. Because he's got a choice of two excellent courses. (If he firms Warwick, I'll guess his insurance for that will also be pretty good).

My dd got a offer for Cambridge engineering, and spent quite a while weighing it up versus her other favourite, Southampton. She had the additional dilemma that the latter was for electrical&electronic which she knew she wanted to specialise in, rather than general. She knew that realistically, she'd almost certainly be able to get a First from Southampton but likely a 2:1 from Cambridge. DH and I were quite neutral on this because we could see both options were good!
She didn't decide until after an offer holders event when she stayed overnight at the college she'd been pooled to.
Anyway ... she went to Cambridge, loved the place, worked extremely hard and got her 2:1. She's now still in the area, no problem getting a job in her desired field. She's got more leisure time now than as a student though, getting back into watersports.
If she'd gone to Southampton... I think she'd have loved the place, worked hard, probably would have been able to carry on doing watersports while there, and almost certainly would have got a good degree and been able to find a job in her chosen field.

One of her school friends started maths at Cambridge, having been admitted despite slipping her STEP grade. But she decided being a mathmo wasn't for her after all. Fortunately she'd also done a language A level and was able to switch to MML and afaik thrived thereafter. Another of DDs engineering first year friends found it too much but was able to switch to a different (good) uni.

I don't think there's a really right or wrong choice on this.

[MoreTeaAndBiscuits]

I went to Cambridge to study Maths (though this was many years ago I doubt it has changed too much!). I would probably accept the Cambridge offer, but it's great that you're thinking through the pros and cons.
The supervision system at Cambridge is excellent - it taught me the confidence to say "I don't understand, please explain again", repeatedly if necessary. I didn't have this from school because school was easy, and it has been a really useful skill! Also, all the explanations I got helped me to understand the course!
The tripos system is super-flexible. I did Part IA Maths (first year), then Part IB and Part II Physics (second and third year), then Part II General Computer Science (fourth year). It meant that I could find a subject that I loved and was really good at, despite not really knowing what I wanted to do!
I didn't actually make my offer - I was offered AAC with step maths and physics, I failed the step physics, but they accepted me anyway (maybe because I did well at step maths, maybe because my school couldn't offer any help with studying for the step papers)
I did have to work really hard, though I still fitted in plenty of sport, and visits to the college bar. I couldn't fit in a job during term-time, but terms are short (8 weeks) so I could earn money over the holidays. If the maths exam system is still the same, your grade is completely based on your final exams, and in those exams you pick a few questions to do really well in-depth. This suits some people and not others. You are competing against some really clever people in the exams, but I didn't find the majority of people there to be super-competitive, just very clever and interested in their subject.
A good friend went to Warwick, she had a brilliant time, didn't have to work as hard as me (though she is exceptionally clever), lots of partying, did very well, and is now a very high up academic.
So, I'd say choose Cambridge for the challenge and the slight kudos bump, but in all probability either will be excellent and he'll have a brilliant time

[poetryandwine]

Many good points here but I would single out @AChickenCalledDaal and her query about the feelings your DS has to STEP. Cambridge write the exam and it is indicative of the value they, possibly more than the other elite Maths Schools, put on sheer cleverness - which is only one kind of mathematical talent - especially during the first two years.

DH did Maths at C quite a while back now. He got a first in Y3 when the Maths became deeper but a 2.1 overall, then a Distinction at Part III and a PhD offer which he declined to go elsewhere. He has had an excellent career.

He enjoyed College life a lot and the early approach to Maths less so. He found Part III enormously valuable. None of his UG tutors would have spotted him as a future Russell Group professor, whereas many students who were clever in the early years did probably receive more encouragement. (I just infer that. He has never sounded bitter.)

But it is Oxbridge and I, who was educated abroad, never cease to be amazed at what that means in this country. And these are great unis for those who thrive and are in tune with the academic approach. As against this, I agree with PPs on this thread and others that a 2.2 from Oxbridge is no longer a desirable degree. FWIW, when I was an Admission Tutor in an ‘upper RG’ STEM School, I arranged a surprising number of transfers from Oxbridge students and they hadn’t all failed. Some were just miserable. No uni is the best choice for all whom it admits.

If the Warwick offer of your DS also depends on STEP (especially if it is for grade 2) he might want to think about whether he wishes to retain both C and W. There is a lot to be said for a non-STEP insurance choice.

Rumour has it that C hugely over-offers and uses STEP to control their intake numbers

Best wishes

[RuthW]

My dd decided not to apply for Oxbridge. She went to look round and didn't like the pressure. She went to Warwick and came out with a first class maths masters degree. Warwick is a fantastic uni.

[RuthW]

Forgot to say you need STEP for Warwick too.

[RuthW]

@Neolara

My dd was considering applying to Warwick for maths this year but was put off because so much of it was still online. Also the 30 minute commute to campus in years 2 and 3. This would be very different to the Cambridge experience. Something to think about maybe.

Why the commute? Yes you can choose to live 30 mins away but my dd had houses 15 mins walk away for years 2-4. There are loads and loads of houses near the campus.

[Needmoresleep]

I think you need to accept his preferences as a adult. It is his life. But there is plenty of scope to talk it through with him, using the pros and cons coming up here. One of DS friends went to Oxford under pressure from parents when she wanted to take a more practical though still prestigious course. She was very underwhelmed by the teaching, mainly because her tutor was disinterested, and she eventually dropped out. DD similarly decided not to apply (medicine) because she wanted a different style of teaching, longer terms and no essays, and has not regretted it for an instant, even though she has met plenty of doctors/Oxbridge grads who will assert, with no evidence, that Oxbridge is superior.

Firstly maths is fairly simple. You want to be somewhere with others of the same ability. Take the offer, and make Warwick second choice, then work hard for A levels - you would need to do that for Warwick anyway, and for STEP, but not with a focus of making the Cambridge offer. If he is a genuine Mathmo there is a good chance that if he does STEP prep for its own sake he will enjoy it. If he then makes the offer, he is good enough and will almost certainly do well enough by simply engaging and working hard. (Small tip. there will be some there who got their grades following stupendous amounts of tutoring. A proportion on the course will struggle. Many will be from this group.)

Forget also about the short terms, these are just about teaching, not studying. DS was not at Oxbridge but two thirds of the courses he took on his econometrics degree were maths. The longer terms helped but he still spent Christmas and Easter vacations revising and practicing to ensure that the foundations he had gained remained strong. I understand that Cambridge and Warwick will also expect to do some work during vacations.

Employers are on the ball. They know that many very strong students do not go to Oxbridge. For maths they will be looking for COWI (Cambridge, Oxford, Warwick, Imperial) as well as Bath and Durham and some others. He should go where he thinks he will be happiest. All of these will deliver a great education and he is most likely to thrive and to develop as an adult where he is happy.

It is probably a case of whether he is concerned about making the offer, or about the course/place itself. If the former he should not worry. STEP is like a second interview, which 50% will fail. Just hang on in there and give it a go. Any disappointment will vanish when he gets to Warwick and discovers that a significant proportion of his peers are both very bright and in the same boat. And if he does not make the Warwick offer, there will be lots of choice in clearing for a good mathematician.

[AlexaShutUp]

I had an offer from Cambridge that I wanted to turn down. I had hated the interview process at Cambridge, hated all of the uberconfident private school types, just didn't feel like I would fit. Loved my second choice university and really wanted to go there instead. My parents were fine with that, said to do whatever would make me happy. My much-respected head of sixth form, however, had other ideas. He insisted that I would regret it if I didn't go to Cambridge and basically said that I was going to the other place over his dead body. I listened to him and went to Cambridge.

Obviously, I will never know how life would have turned out if I had gone to the other university. It might have been amazing. However, my experience at Cambridge was a fabulous one and I will forever be grateful to my old teacher for persuading me to go. It was an incredible experience and has opened so many doors to me. I do think that I might have regretted it if I hadn't gone, but we'll never know.

Ultimately, it is your ds's decision. He's obviously a bright kid. I'm sure he'll do well wherever he ends up.

[AlexaShutUp]

The one thing that I would add is that, whatever he chooses, let it be a positive choice. Oxbridge certainly isn't the be all and end all, and there are other positive reasons for choosing other universities. If it is a positive decision to go elsewhere, then great. If it is motivated by fear - of not getting the grades, of not fitting in etc - then that probably isn't such a good line of thinking.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I'm happy to talk about dds experience at studying Maths in Cambridge by dm if you like. She's currently in the fourth year there.

I think college choice can make a bit of a difference, with some putting more pressure on than others. It also depends on their personality and aims. Whether they are likely to worry if they perceive others as being better than them, or finding it easier.

The supervision system is really excellent and there is no doubt that the depth and breadth of the Cambridge course provides a brilliant mathematical education.

There is a lot more to Cambridge though than the studying aspect. There are sufficient parties etc for those who enjoy that sort of thing and plenty of quieter stuff for those who don't. It's also a pretty short train ride to London, once they stop the Saturday lectures in the second year for those who need to escape the Cambridge bubble occasionally.

[poetryandwine]

I would just caution with respect to the idea that there will necessarily be many good choices for an able mathematician in Clearing! Before going with two STEP offers I would at minimum suggest researching the recent Clearing History of other unis and Schools of Maths for which your DS feels real enthusiasm. (I agree there is a COWI advantage in the subject.)

[lljkk]

I thought Oxbridge wasn't a hothouse once you're there, it's just the getting in that's stressful. Only until exams done.
That's 5 months between now & end June, not forever.

[PattyPan]

DP did Cambridge maths and spent loads of time rowing and doing music stuff, definitely not unbearable pressure. Oxbridge is a very different experience to other universities - supervisions are a more enjoyable way to learn imo and I think there are a lot of opportunities in terms of extra curriculars that you don’t get in other places. I didn’t know anyone who didn’t do at least one society.

[titchy]

He wouldn't be reducing his stress levels though. Warwick still need STEP, and will be just as stressful as Cam. Not sure why he thinks Warwick would be a breeze tbh.

[AlexaShutUp]

@lljkk

I thought Oxbridge wasn't a hothouse once you're there, it's just the getting in that's stressful. Only until exams done.
That's 5 months between now & end June, not forever.

It's pretty intense tbh. Work hard, play hard culture. But the terms are short so there is plenty of opportunity to relax and relax and recharge in between.

[PPCD]

A maths degree at Warwick is going to be just as difficult as at Cambridge.

Also to the previous poster who said living out at Warwick is a 30 min commute. It really isn't a problem and at Cambridge you can end up living quite far out in years 2 and 3 as well. I wouldn't base any part of the decision on this.

[MarchingFrogs]

Accept it, work hard for A levels and see where you are in August.


He can always choose Warwick at that point, in a free choice if he meets his cam offer.

Um, no - it doesn't work like that. If he meets the conditions for his firm offer, his insurance offer is no longer on the table. He can release himself from his firm offer, if he wishes to, but that means that he releases himself into the freedom to apply elsewhere through Clearing. And as someone upthread indicated, it is not a foregone conclusion that Maths at somewhere like Warwick will be available through Clearing.

As to whether the OP's DS 'should' firm Cambridge or not, that should be his decision - but it's one that he has got another four and a bit months to weigh up. (Whatever nudges the university may give, if it does, about letting them know whether he will be accepting the offer or not, the only mechanism for doing that which actually matters is through UCAS and the deadline isn't until June).

[poetryandwine]

Hi, @titchy and others -

C say they typically require grade 1 at STEP.
W say that if you take MAT or TMUA in Nov and do well you may get a nonSTEP offer. I would also bet they require grade 2 in a typical STEP offer but don’t see any info on their website (quick search)

[DietrichandDiMaggio]

Something I never understand, on here particularly, but also elsewhere, is that when choosing universities young people are told to think about the course offered at different places and a lot of emphasis is put on not just liking the university itself, but also the city they'd be living in for 3/4 years and whether that is somewhere they want to live. Except when it comes to Oxford or Cambridge -then people seem to think that because they can go, they should. Never mind that a vibrant city like Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham or even London are more suited to the student, they should go and live in Oxford or Cambridge instead, just because they can get in.