Cambridge offer - DS might want to turn it down

[AndyFloss]

DS has a Cambridge offer. He's delighted, but he is now starting to consider whether he wants to go down this path of unbelievable pressure.

If he commits to getting in, he'll be under massive pressure to achieve the required grade for 4 A levels PLUS the step exam (Maths).

This is making him think that although he could really push himself to do it and he has the capability, it is possible that once in, he'll be under unbearable pressure for 3 years. And all for what?

He potentially risks getting a lower grade in his degree, whilst if he goes somewhere like Warwick, also good for Maths, he could do very well and also have a nicer life.

Of course he then goes back full circle thinking that if he rejects a Cambridge offer, he'll regret it for the rest of his life.

I'd love to hear opinions please.

[poetryandwine]

Thank you, @TooSpotty.

[HoneyMobster]

@Gladioli23 - DS1 is paying £7 this year at Oxford for a 3 course formal meal. It is very cheap!

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I wonder what the Op is thinking of this discussion.

In terms of cost Cambridge has been very affordable for my daughter, who eats very well and has enough to do all the things she enjoys. She has earned decent money during the summer breaks which she hasn't needed to tap into.

I'd add a slight caution about the 'short terms'. Depending on college and course, for both Oxford and Cambridge, students can be asked to start back before term starts and have things to do after term starts, so it is often more of a 9 week+ term. Christmas and Easter do tend to be be very full of work of some sort of another. There are no reading weeks. The last term of the year after Easter carries on right into June with exams at the end and they are expected to be residential for all that term. I've friends who's dc didn't seem to be at university that much that term.

[PattyPan]

@DottyHarmer

Cambridge supervisions are solo, Oxford with one other. I don’t know which is worse! When you’re on your own there’s nowhere to hide, and with another person there’s the real danger that they might present a brilliant piece of work!

Depends on college, course, subject and module I think! Ie I think it’s usual at Cambridge to have a supervision partner as well but if you’re taking more niche modules you might not. This was my experience anyway, had supervision partners for all my modules in year 1, about half in year 2 and was all on my own as a weirdo finalist.

Re jobs - you can work at balls (either the full thing and get paid, or work half and go to the other half free) and at some colleges you can work for the library. You can also earn a fair bit for trying to get money out of alumni and they usually pay for outreach work as well. As well as lots of random scholarships, essay prizes etc.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

It's true about the random scholarship money. dd has occasionally had an email out of the blue giving her unexpected money. Which is quite nice. Her college always pairs mathmos together for supervisions, usually of roughly matched ability for that subject area.

[Gladioli23]

We were able to apply for a travel grant as well if you agreed to make your holiday vaguely educational (though didn't have to be related to your subject) - think going to the Florida space museum or visiting the Colosseum in Rome etc.

And you could work in the college bar, or I had a holiday job back home and there were also hardship grants available if you didn't have enough money (even if the reason was just that your parents earnt lots but refused to give you anything towards uni).

[opoponax]

When my DS was making his final decision regarding University destination, we played the game of imagining how he would feel if certain offers were taken away and that really helped to focus his mind. Once the offers become real it can become confusing, especially when you hadn't dared hope that you would be in such a strong position of having great choices.

[torenoornottoreno]

I turned down Cambridge. Best decision of my life.

[sleepyhoglet]

Cambridge is amazing. Is he self sabotaging Eg worried he won't get in so taking the worry away from himself?

[mutterphore]

@DottyHarmer, DS1 (Cambridge) doing and arts/humanities subject has had 4 students to one supervisor in his supervisions at times and never less than 3 students to one supervisor. So actually, within a one hour supervision, it's not at all intense and if anything, you have to, 'fight for air time'. DS2 (Oxford) usually has two students to one tutor in tutorials. Seminars and classes are even larger groups.

It may be the subjects they're studying (arts/humanities) but neither has found things particularly pressured or too busy and both are happily involved in several different extracurricular activities and do lots of socialising too. The need to write one or two essays per week is very good practice at learning how to focus in on the most salient reading and be very selective about what's included in an essay. Both have felt that this regular practice has helped them to get faster and more efficient at working.

Different subjects though are a lot more pressured but I do think that once you get over the first hurdle of working out what's expected and a get some kind of weekly structure going, then it's possible to have a balanced life of work hard/play hard.

One of the many reasons (not the main one) they/I hoped they'd go to Ox and Cam was because it was so very much cheaper to be a student there than most other unis and they both get to stay in college accommodation for all three years and only pay for the weeks they're there in term time and possibly a week before and a week after full-term too.

[Thirtytimesround]

Hmmm. I went. It was a while back but I found it very pressured and unenjoyable. Two of my friends attempted suicide while there.

It got me some high-flying jobs I probably wouldn’t have got without a Cambridge degree. Gave them up to sahm. Was it worth it? Probably not for me, I wish I’d gone somewhere more fun (and gone for a less high-flyer job which might actually have been compatible with parenting).

If I was a man and able to parent the ‘hands off dad way’ then probably it would have been well worth it in terms of lifetime earnings though…

The biggest issue for your child is that now he has the offer, he’ll always wonder what it would have been like to go.

If it was my son I’d encourage him to go but be quite pleased for him if he didn’t.

[ashnaa]

OP, I agree with the pp above that it sounds like your DS is self-sabotaging here.

I would put it to him like this - he is very lucky. Life doesn’t always go your way, but when it does you’re a fool if you don’t make the most of it! Many, many talented mathematicians have been rejected at this point - students who would have grabbed at the opportunity with both hands. Does he realise this?

Yes, STEP is going to be tough and 50% will not make it. It’s a very harsh system (god knows why they need to put them through it). But, look at it glass half full rather than glass half empty - he has done brilliantly to get the offer at this point. If he makes it through STEP - bonus! If not, he has nothing to be worried about. He will know he tried and is among some of the top mathematicians in the country.

But he can’t give up at this point. Cambridge is a stunning and atmospheric place to live! My DC (not Maths) literally can’t wait. Yes they work hard, but I’d rather be working a bit harder in a beautiful place, than getting buses backwards and forwards to a campus or living in a more mundane place.

It is a lot of pressure for these maths applicants and he’s obviously feeling it. But all he can do is his best. If he gets C - amazing! Otherwise he can go to Warwick and still be amazing. It’s a win win.

[Malbecfan]

DD has 2 tutees in one supervision group and 3 in the other (1st years).

What is different about Natural Sciences at Cambridge is that they do so much, compared to other courses. DD specialised in Material Science but also had to do Chemistry, Maths and some computer programming. She talked to my cousin, a Materials graduate from a RG university, who commented on how comprehensive DD's knowledge was. In essence, DD has done a degree in Materials Science as well as the other scientific parts.

Those posters who had a difficult time, I'm sorry, Things have obviously changed because since 2017, DD's tutors have all been contactable by email. When she had a problem and needed some pastoral advice, she said they were brilliant. She might be in a very supportive college - we have been most impressed by their inclusion of families in events - but both DH and I wish that we had been offered the opportunity that our older DD has been lucky enough to experience.

[Lancelottie]

A very brilliant girl we know did turn down Cambridge. She did three years elsewhere, got a First and is now doing a Cambridge PhD.

It’s not always a dramatic disaster.

[sendsummer]

I certainly ruffled some feathers a few pages back, some very defensive reactions.
I am not particularly attached to the term ‘handholding’, others will find a better way to describe the high level Oxbridge teaching input that is akin to what the brightest (and wealthiest) secondary school pupils get in schools like Westminster. Both provide structured external motivation and feedback that accelerate progress into higher level academic thinking skills. Many Oxbridge students start off feeling uncomfortable discussing their relative weaknesses in an area but most will recognise the advantages at least after graduation. At other academic universities students may have to struggle through complex material on their own without any proper feedback on their understanding until exams whilst at Oxford and Cambridge they can talk it through at least once a week with a PhD student or higher level academic (who have it installed in them that teaching is a priority). That is a privilege and costly for the universities.

BTW my observations (and they are just observations) are based on an amalgamation of my experience and that of many academic colleagues, senior and junior. I am a professor although due to my research impact and linked external positions I am too busy to have much to do with undergraduates now.

[whiteroseredrose]

I think the STEP will 'cull' a lot of offer holders.

DD's BFF lost her offer due to STEP and she was top of her Grammar School for Maths. All A*s / 9s. Top grades for everything. Did the Olympiads. All the right things.

DS's friend got into Cambridge Maths (was brilliant in School, self taught extra Further Maths modules) but didn't qualify for the 4th Year. Is now taking a year out to apply for Masters courses.

Cambridge Maths is brutal. We reckon DS's friend dodged a bullet. She is now happy at Durham.

[Ethelandbob]

I've not read the thread because I don't want to be influenced by what I read. I've name changed for this in case it's identifiable.
I'm speaking as a parent of a child currently at Cambridge.
She's not doing maths and I know from others that STEP is a whole other level of stress and difficulty.
But what she's experiencing at Cambridge:
She's a first year doing an essay subject.
The workload is pretty intense. Most of her friends are scientists and are in lectures or labs 9-5 then working in the evenings. She reckons she does between 40 and 50 hours a week but much of that is self directed (25 hours reading and 6+ hours writing for one essay a week) - in addition there are lectures and small group with etc. Her best friends elsewhere are medics so the workload is pretty similar to them but it certainly is a lot higher than other people doing her subject elsewhere.
But she is absolutely loving it. I don't think she feels hugely pressured - just the workload is what it is and she can't afford to get behind. But she's also out several nights a week; she's thrown herself into various societies so doing sport several times a week too.
She's met some amazing people. I don't think she was anxious about finding her tribe but I think she expected there to be more people she struggled to get on with. As it is she is constantly saying "honestly everyone is so lovely and no one gets left out" (she's at a very big central college) and the 1 or 2 toxic types are not kow-towed to (which was one of her fears) but people don't have time for them. She was very lucky at school with great friends but is coming across quite a few people who felt like fish out of water at their schools and are really happy.
Yes she's only a first year and yes the first holiday was definitely a much-needed rest but generally her experience has been really positive. The amount of feedback and input she gets has been really good as well.
I think, if someone struggled with anxiety and didn't cope well with deadlines and time pressures, it would be a hard environment.
But, so far at least, it's been a good place for her to be and I wouldn't discount it purely on worry about the workload without thinking about how he might cope with that.

[poetryandwine]

Hi, @sendsummer -

Where you see defensiveness, I see debate. I opened it, and I closed that post by saying that I agreed with you that the likes of W and I require greater intellectual independence. I had also noted implicitly that if I have any personal bias it is anti-C because DH (also high impact research) was not encouraged there until it was clear he was headed for a Distinction at Part III. He rejected their PhD offer.

Of course the Oxbridge supervision is costly and unfair relative to what other universities can afford and I am not defending the latter.
But if office hours that must maintained - even by members of the Royal Society at my uni - were even 50% ultilised, I would not have taken issue with your choice of wording.

If you know anyone who has unlocked a scalable secret, other than extremely small group supervisions exposing and normalising one’s ignorance, for getting UGs to open up about what academic help they need, I would be extremely pleased to pass it on to my RG network with as much (or as little) credit as desired. As we all know (in STEM at least) that progress is built on collaboration I will take this opportunity to rebut the idea that it s a particular virtue always to learn independently, although if that is best for an individual it’s obviously fine.

[sendsummer]

poetryandwine I am sorry, I forgot to mention that I thought that your previous post (not one of the defensive ones) made some pertinent points.
exposing and normalising one’s ignorance, for getting UGs to open up about what academic help they need
Really hard without the teaching intense ‘hand holding’ (or equivalent phrase) until they experience proper research and research environments
The average student won’t ask if they run the risk of being made to look stupid or to be thought stupid and it is not always obvious to them what they don’t know (Socrates and Rumsfeld quotes come to mind).

[FlyingSquid]

exposing and normalising one’s ignorance, for getting UGs to open up about what academic help they need

Mm. DD (Oxbridge fresher) has been startled by how reluctant her fellow undergrads are to say anything that might be wrong during tutorials/supervisions. She reckons that comes from fear of mockery at school if ‘the clever one’ gets an answer wrong. (As far as I can gather, she’s more likely to blurt out whatever comes into her randomly well-stocked head, and cheerfully retract it again later if necessary.

No one expected her to get an Oxbridge offer. She’s not a top-grades-all-round type. So she doesn’t have that baggage - she knows she’s middle/bottom of the pack there and is actually enjoying the sometimes brutal feedback.

[TooSpotty]

@sendsummer I think it's unfair to criticise defensive responses when your second post describes something that doesn't look to me at all like handholding. I wouldn't argue for a second that the tutorial system is a luxury in many ways, and the resources in Oxbridge are superb. But the method of teaching, certainly in the arts, that I experienced was entirely sink or swim. The pastoral care or teaching may (hopefully) both have improved, but I experienced most of my first two years as being left entirely alone with very little teaching time, and depending on the person, that could be an hour of a fairly distracted senior academic who probably didn't know my name. I was from a state school, hadn't been tutored or pushed, or had any additional prep time, so it wasn't that I was expecting bells and whistles, but I know friends at other universities were helped with study skills, had support from invested tutors, were in study groups for peer support etc.

It may be the worst of one and the best of others that I'm comparing, but I know plenty of people on my course felt fairly at sea.

[interferingma]

I absolutely believe you need some grit to thrive at Cambridge. DS did. He did English and was left to his own devices apart from supervisions (which he loved). DD applied for maths at Oxford and didn't get in. Never a thought of reapplying bc she realised it wasn't for her. She'd been shovelled down that path by her maths teachers who were desperate for an Oxbridge scalp I think!
It's the very opposite of a soft option for students who need support imo

[ErrolTheDragon]

Maybe the oxbridge supo/tutorial system is more like climbing with ropes than 'handholding'?

[interferingma]

Remember the reason (mainly) they interview is to see how students can interact, challenge and defend positions. They want interesting students who aren't pushovers I think.

[TooSpotty]

I didn’t thrive particularly, but I wouldn’t want to advise anyone now on 30 year old experience. I get the impression it’s very different now in welcome ways.

Part of it is that it didn’t suit the way I now know (through all the usual psychometrics/management training/life experience) I learn best. As the course became more collaborative and structured I enjoyed it far more. In my first year I developed an eating disorder in an attempt to comfort myself and my mental health was very fragile, and all of that did improve by the end of my degree. I eventually found the right extra-curricular stuff for me too, after some false starts. I struggled socially after choosing a college that didn’t suit me, but found my friends in my second year; the nature of the course meant I didn’t meet many other people doing the subject for quite a while. I yearned to be at a university with more people, a central union facility etc.

But mine is only one experience and I had undiagnosed ADHD which explains an awful lot; I would hope people would be more on the ball about it now.

I cannot deny that I’ve benefited from being Oxbridge. Employers who have been impressed. My own self confidence was bolstered by the fact that I’d survived and come out with a degree!