Is anyone else guilty of feeling like this

[AmyWhiteshead]

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7148929

(first post)
Came across this thread on The Student Room. This hit a bit differently. Basically DS has gotten offers from Glasgow and Cardiff (insurance) for Maths but he was aiming for Cambridge Warwick or Imperial. I know that these are all Russell Groups and good unis but it feels anticlimactic after a lot of late nights studying, anxiety and
sacrifice from mum and dad'.

This isn't a traditional is uni x good enough thread, I just feel conflicted about whether it's okay to have such high expectations of our child. I appreciate that the pandemic has made everything harder and more competitive but I am a bit disappointed.

[PotatoPie888]

Just seen that Glasgow University, which was mentioned, is rated 8th for maths, so I am even more confused now

[TheLeadbetterLife]

I feel sorry for your son, OP. Speaking not from a parent’s perspective (I’m childfree), but as someone who grew up under the expectation that I was good enough to get into Oxbridge. This came from my father, who died when I was ten, but it hung over me nonetheless, and still does, even though I’m now 40. And I did go to Oxbridge! I feel like a failure for not having achieved more in my career to date, despite having worked at a prestigious organisation for several years. I wish I didn’t feel that pressure, because rationally I know that it’s all bullshit. Happiness matters more, and I am happy.

I am 100% sure that your son is all too aware of your disappointment, and frankly your posts are upsetting to read. Especially the part about you persuading him not to go on a gap year, and your desire for him to get on the graduate job conveyor belt as soon as he can. I fear he’s going to disappoint you again if he doesn’t end up at some blue chip firm.

Why don’t you let him do what he wants? Find his own thing, instead of you living vicariously through him?

If he was rejected from all three top choices pre-interview, maybe this isn’t the right path for him. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Why set him up for failure by trying to put a square peg in a round hole? He’s bound to be brilliant at something, something none of you may have considered, because it sounds like he’s under pressure not to explore.

[TizerorFizz]

@PotatoPie888
For maths, the most elite pre test. I don’t believe Glasgow does so it’s not elite. It might be 8th but no one will care much about that! Unless you go on to do research. A university in 10th or 6th or 15th won’t remotely matter for most careers post maths degree.,As far as I can see, Mathematicians get jobs.

There can be issues though. My friend’s DS got a 2:2 in maths from Cambridge and really struggled to get a job. He did a year after graduating and is fine now. I suspect a 2:1 from Glasgow might have been better! However he had never volunteered or done a days paid work in his life. He believed Cambridge was his passport to job success. It wasn’t. Another friend’s DS is a teacher with a good maths degree from Warwick. Never bothered with any work experience or a job and wasn’t interested in a better paid job after graduating. And that’s fine for his students in school, isn’t it?

There really is more to getting a job than your university. Students should consider: What ambition do you have? What do you do to support that ambition? Do you care about being highly paid? Why does Oxbridge/Imperial/Warwick matter if you are ok with a fairly standard job afterwards? Can you get the same job regardless of where you study maths? I do think personality, ambition and career planning matter but it does wherever you study.

[Elasmotherium]

@RampantIvy

Glasgow is a very highly regarded university BTW, and a fantastic city.

This!!

DD is in her first year at Glasgow (her first choice) and is loving the whole experience. It's a great city to be a student in.

[TizerorFizz]

There is a difference between accepting a university that is your first choice as opposed to one that’s your fourth choice. Of course this DS can be happy there but being rejected from the top 3 might feel like elsewhere isn’t what was planned. However Glasgow was on his list, so he’s presumably ok with it. I’m not sure my DD would have really wanted her 4th choice though. Only the first 3 were the real contenders!

[Ginpostersyndrome]

@TizerorFizz

There is a difference between accepting a university that is your first choice as opposed to one that’s your fourth choice. Of course this DS can be happy there but being rejected from the top 3 might feel like elsewhere isn’t what was planned. However Glasgow was on his list, so he’s presumably ok with it. I’m not sure my DD would have really wanted her 4th choice though. Only the first 3 were the real contenders!

But then it's potentially reasonable for the applicant to feel disappointed. I'm not sure it is reasonable for the parents to feel the same or (it sounds like) a higher level of disappointment.
My DD was much like yours and would have been gutted not to get an offer from any of her top three. But my response would be to empathise hugely with her and be disappointed for her because of her own disappointment. My personal feelings wouldn't have come into it because where she goes to university is not a reflection on me in any way.

[TizerorFizz]

@Ginpostersyndrome
I think parents are allowed to be disappointed and have different views on this. It could be the DS was poorly advised to apply to 3 universities that pre test. I’m guessing that’s the issue here. There’s also the issue that maybe this DS was seen as “the” maths nerd at his school and if was swallowed by his parents. I’ve seen this happen too. Big fish in a small pond etc. We also don’t know how well he was prepped for the pre tests. The OP might be sad about this if more could have been done. It’s not unusual for parents to live vicariously through DCs university applications either. MN is full of such earnest people who micromanage every aspect of university applications. However if this DS really did want his top 3, then I guess he’s somewhat disappointed too. Don’t forget his friends will know he’s not got into his top 3. So my feeling is that it’s disappointment all round. But - it will pass and he can be successful elsewhere.

[Dancingdreamer]

My DD wouldn’t choose Oxbridge again. She has secured a great job but her friends from other less prestigious universities (where there was less pressure and stress), have also got equally great jobs. And now some of her friends who were rejected from Oxbridge at undergrad level are doing doctorates there. Glasgow and Cardiff are both good, solid universities and I would be proud of my DD attending either one of these.

[PotatoPie888]

Interesting @Dancingdreamer My eldest DC applied for Oxbridge but didn’t get an interview. He is at an RG university which I think is great (possibly not up to some peoples’ standards though. Now currently wondering if younger DC should go through the same process or if it’s not worth the bother.

[TizerorFizz]

@PotatoPie888
I rather think it depends on the subject and what your DC wants to do. I would also take into consideration what they think and if they are truly good enough to hack the pace when they are there. Would it be best fit or not?

My DD did get a place but messed up one A level by a grade so didn’t go. However she’s done brilliantly since and is now earning a lot in her chosen career. So going to a good RG is no barrier. Although I would caution against some RGs for a few subjects! They really are not all the same for all subjects! Overall look for the best in their subject and apply for 4 RG as well as Oxford. But be discerning.

[witheringrowan]

@Dancingdreamer

My DD wouldn’t choose Oxbridge again. She has secured a great job but her friends from other less prestigious universities (where there was less pressure and stress), have also got equally great jobs. And now some of her friends who were rejected from Oxbridge at undergrad level are doing doctorates there. Glasgow and Cardiff are both good, solid universities and I would be proud of my DD attending either one of these.

I would be in two minds as well about doing it again. I have a good career, made some great friends and enjoyed the later years of my course. But my confidence took a real knock in the first year or so, and honestly it took almost a decade to feel I was on an even keel again. A couple of friends I've met since university who also went to Oxford have similar mixed feelings. It's an very pressured environment, huge adjustment from school and DC don't need any more pressure from parents either around getting in or how they cope if they manage to get there. My parents never pressured me in any way, but I was always aware of how much they had paid for my schooling and when I had times I struggled at university I had incredible guilt that I wasn't making the most of their investment.

[PotatoPie888]

@TizerorFizz dc needed AAA to get onto his course so probably bright enough. I know enough Oxbridge grads to know you don’t have to be a genius to study there. That brings me to my next point. It can be hard to live up to the hype. Those Oxbridge grads who have modest/no careers beat themselves up about failing expectations. It’s nonsense of course, but it’s a real thing. Younger dc is definitely bright enough but I’m not sure it’s worth it.

[Xenia]

My siblings when to Oxbridge and I didn't try but I never felt worse or less good and have had a good legal career without that so I never felt the children had to do that - none of the 5 tried (3 of them with Bristol and one Nottingham which does not seem to have hindered legal careers so far and the one who went to Reading through clearing is happy with his choices).

I am sure most parents most of all want to make sure their children are loved however the children turn out and have moral values which do not require particularly universities or careers to have done what was expected (although a good career and money certainly can help you in life).

[Comefromaway]

My privately educated dd is studying Musical Theatre at a college no-one (except a few in the industry) have ever heard of. Her academic teachers wanted her to apply for philosophy at Cambridge.

Private school didn't work out for ds due to his autism and the school's refusal to accommodate his disability. But I'm just as proud of him applying for vocational courses at supposedly lower ranked universities (becasue I know they have good job prospects for his particular subject)

To me, private education was not solely about grades and prestige.

[TizerorFizz]

I agree. It wasn’t solely about grades and prestige did us either as DD1 qualified for a grammar school. It was more about her pursuing her interests and flourishing in a smaller environment. And, as I said, the grades didn’t materialise anyway!

I think AAA is a minimum for Oxford. If plenty more are A* x 3 (snd they are) and score highly in the pre tests, then AAA isn’t outstanding. Years ago it was. Subject combination and PS etc are taken into consideration when DC are selected for interview. It simply isn’t just about predicted grades. These days AAA students are everywhere!

[TizerorFizz]

Did us…. For us either

[Comefromaway]

Overall look for the best in their subject and apply for 4 RG as well as Oxford. But be discerning.

I agree about looking at subjects. The number of people who have been very snobby about Salford & Huddersfield for Music but Huddersfield in particular is world class.

[thing47]

Academic achievement is not always linear. Some people peak early, or are good all rounders while others prefer it when the curriculum narrows down to A level, or to degree and they can focus on the aspects they really enjoy.

I've always found it odd that one of the criteria for university ranking is entry grades – this tells you nothing whatsoever about the quality of the course, or of the teaching, or indeed of the students leaving the university.

@TizerorFizz is right to suggest that pupils need to dig a little deeper and do a bit more research than merely look at the overall league table. There are pockets of excellence in unregarded universities, and areas of underperformance in good ones.

[opoponax]

@Comefromaway there is a lot of snobbery around Medicine too, particularly with regard to the newer Universities. It is all so misguided. All UK Medicine degrees are equal and are regulated by the General Medical Council. The Medical Schools have different course structures that appeal differently to different DC but they are all equal in value. Once you have qualified as a doctor, where you studied is irrelevant. In RL I've heard of parents steering their DC in a certain direction that fits their own ideas of overall University rankings rather than helping them focus on strategically leveraging their credentials to maximum benefit given that Medical Schools select candidates using different criteria. It must cost some DC their chance at Medicine and it is really very sad.

[PotatoPie888]

AAA is enough for quite a few Oxbridge courses. It’s ridiculous to suggest that AAA students are everywhere. You need to open your mind to beyond your immediate world.

[poetryandwine]

I wonder whether there were concerns around the STEP/MAT predicted grade? Rumour has it that C Maths makes almost twice as many offers as they have places knowing how many will fall to STEP (and I assume they have the PGs for the most part). If this was the problem or if the school has a poor history in this area that could explain a lot.

The latter possibility is not an indictment of the school overall. The most famous school in England, boasting many distinguished alumni and at least one highly distinguished maths alumnus, has produced notably few mathematicians whilst excelling in most other areas.

[Bumpsadaisie]

[quote chopc]@AmyWhiteshead I don't know if you are justified to feel the way you do. However I can tell you there is a whole thread on mumsnet started by me and going on for almost a year as it was so so difficult to get over my DC Post interview Cambridge rejection.

I personally did not think that going to a private school was a shoo in anywhere - it was for the experience and everything it would offer in terms of giving tools for DC to go forward. However I felt he was also a brilliant student and deserved a place at Cambridge. But actually going to the school he did, put things in perspective as there are so many brilliant students.

In any case it's old news but just saying I understand how you feel. Now he is at Durham with a lot of the other people who were unsuccessful for Oxbridge and having a great time

University is still on a path - it is not the destination. For me it was the destination which is why it was particularly hard to take [/quote]
@chopc

If you don't mind sharing I'd be really interested to hear - now you have had some time to process it - what it was you think made it so distressing that your DC didn't get into Cambridge.

I often wonder about this myself. My kids are bright and I would be keen for them to apply if they wanted to but I worry how I would manage to keep an even keel about it all and that I would totally put my DC off as a result.

[chopc]

@Bumpsadaisie I will pm you at some point

[poetryandwine]

Sorry, I realise the MAT is usually sat in Nov. I was thinking about the STEP predicted grade.

[Dancingdreamer]

[quote opoponax]@Comefromaway there is a lot of snobbery around Medicine too, particularly with regard to the newer Universities. It is all so misguided. All UK Medicine degrees are equal and are regulated by the General Medical Council. The Medical Schools have different course structures that appeal differently to different DC but they are all equal in value. Once you have qualified as a doctor, where you studied is irrelevant. In RL I've heard of parents steering their DC in a certain direction that fits their own ideas of overall University rankings rather than helping them focus on strategically leveraging their credentials to maximum benefit given that Medical Schools select candidates using different criteria. It must cost some DC their chance at Medicine and it is really very sad.[/quote]
Actually as someone who recruits for medical roles, I would say this is one exception. If you want to work at some of the most prestigious hospitals, there is a real bias towards people who studied at the more prestigious academic institutions. Having said that, there is such a shortage of candidates in some areas of medicine so that interview panels can’t always be as choosy as they would like to be!

This example aside, whilst one or two law firms and consultancies do still like Oxbridge graduates, most employers are keen to widen their participation and are actively looking for graduates from broader backgrounds. Even the Civil Service where every other Senior Civil Servant is from Oxbridge, now hides the university at recruitment stage to avoid potential pro Oxbridge bias.

I would say though that a DC who really wants to stay in education and do research is well served by a degree from Oxbridge.