Is anyone else guilty of feeling like this

[AmyWhiteshead]

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7148929

(first post)
Came across this thread on The Student Room. This hit a bit differently. Basically DS has gotten offers from Glasgow and Cardiff (insurance) for Maths but he was aiming for Cambridge Warwick or Imperial. I know that these are all Russell Groups and good unis but it feels anticlimactic after a lot of late nights studying, anxiety and
sacrifice from mum and dad'.

This isn't a traditional is uni x good enough thread, I just feel conflicted about whether it's okay to have such high expectations of our child. I appreciate that the pandemic has made everything harder and more competitive but I am a bit disappointed.

Attending University is about the whole experience. The course, the University, the City. Your son obviously chose which Universities he would like to apply to?

'Not much to get excited about' it's your son attending University, not you.

For top universities and certain competitive courses there are always going to be excellent candidates rejected. It happens every year and was the case even when I applied many years ago. The shock of parents when high-calibre DC don't get places always surprises me when it is a well-known fact that there are much fewer places available than there are excellent candidates. Parents dwelling on this can't possibly help DC come to terms with it. Then there is the other camp of misguided parents who just knew their DC were going to get a place because they are so special. You just can't possibly know. There is an element of luck/lottery in the whole process.

@AmyWhiteshead @Moominmammacat This is a fair point. But Cambridge Warwick and Imperial are in the top 4-5 unis for maths according to my research. Would you mind elaborating your thoughts on why it's a terrible thing as that is what I was looking for more thoughts on. Thank you for your reply ... it's not terrible (unless it's way out of his league and your choice not his) but it's not the only route. A student who is capable of the work at a "top" uni may not be capable emotionally/socially ... more than one way to skin a cat. And FWI, my three are long out of uni and with their contemporaries, it's a million miles from the Oxbridges/Russells always being at the top of the tree now, let alone being happy ... it can be wonderful there for many but far from all so be careful what you hope for.

In the nicest possible way I think you need to get a grip and make sure your DS doesn’t pick up on this.

It’s a tough year this year with places being careful about how many offers they are making and places who have a good track record of maths at say Oxford are finding not as many interviews -eg. 4 offers last year v interview type thing.

My DS is pretty good at Maths but not been well so predicted grades not as good as they might have been and being unwell has decided he wants to stay relatively close to home, London was never an option. We were realistic when his predictions came in that Warwick off the table. That’s life and I have heard some quite disgruntled parents of Warwick students complaining about the contact time in the Pandemic.

He’s got a Bath offer, I’ll be delighted if he meets the grades and goes. He’s got Exeter offer for the integrated masters which is same grades as Bath. I was thinking I might suggest Cardiff to hopefully have something a bit lower . Glasgow would be great but too far.

I care not one bit what anyone else thinks and with DS having been ill I know only too well that being somewhere they can be happy is the most important thing.

If you look at the breakdown of scores there’s very little between the top 15-20 unis in the U.K.

I work at a very ‘low ranking’ university yet still we see amazing outcomes and lives transformed. It’s a shame that education at all levels has become so transactional and outcome focussed rather than about the joy of being a well rounded independent learner and thinker.

The offer for Warwick for maths is A (Maths) A (FM) A (other) with a grade 2 in any STEP. If he was applying for Cambridge he won't have taken STEP yet, so I'm not sure why Warwick would have rejected him unless he's been predicted less that the offer?

OP, speaking from personal experience, you really need to be careful about placing this sort of pressure on your DS (and he will probably sense it even if it's not stated explicitly). You can't predict how his education/future prospects will turn out, regardless which uni he goes to.

@AmyWhiteshead, apologies - I should have made it clear that my comment was re the TSR OP...

OP, I think you have got a bit of a kicking. I had a similar thread on this forum just a month ago when my DS did not get his first two uni choices. I understand your feelings; we are internationals with an Asian background, and having high expectations of our DC is practically mandatory among Asians! Most of our friends have DC in Oxbridge or the LSE or the Ivy League.

That said, DS got his third choice uni and I am now very happy with that, as is he. As other pp said, it is VERY competitive this year. I know this because several of DS' brilliant friends who wanted to study Maths have not got their first or second choices. So many of my friends with DC at Oxbridge say it is incredibly pressured and in a way I am quite relieved that DS won't have to endure that in a pandemic. We are making a trip to DS' prospective uni this weekend and we are all excited! He will be able to play football and have better acco, and much less expensive than being in London.

I can't comment on Glasgow but Maths is a well respected degree so he should have lots of options. he could always try for a Masters at the unis you mention.

I think you sound as though your relationship with your son is rather transactional.
I'm sure you don't mean it to come across like this but it does sound like "we have done this for you so the least we could expect in return is that".
It sounds to me as though maybe school has not done you any favours in not making you aware that your son was not (and sorry for the expression because it's awful but I can't think of a better right now) "top tier" in maths. To be rejected at this stage is unusual with A* predictionsfor Cambridge and Warwick I believe (maybe less so for Imperial).
I'm trying not to be too outing here but...
My dc1 has two friends who both went to a very prestigious public school. Both had parents who "forced" them to apply to Oxbridge and other prestigious unis. One is now at the same college as dc1; the other had 5 rejections. Their predicted grades were nowhere near what would be needed for the courses they applied for. I was genuinely astounded that the school did not warn them that there was zero chance of an offer (they weren't even doing the subjects needed) but maybe they did and the parents didn't listen. The one that is at Oxbridge is happy enough - but their parents are still constantly checking that they are working and going to get a first and not otherwise interested in their life - which is sad when there's so much more to uni than just academia (important as it is). That student chooses minimal contact with their parents as they know it's not them but their achievements that their parents care about.
Neither of these families have sacrificed for their children's future (one is probably in the top 0.1% of income bracket in the UK) so that's not an explanation.
Three of my friends who have PhD or equivalent have children who are /will be incapable of progressing along the "standard" academic route to A levels. I think all of them found that hard - to need to recalibrate their minds from what they had assumed would be the normal pathway for their children (given their genetics) and change it to one which celebrated their children's achievements but with different expectations - but they all did it and I don't think any of the children are aware of any of the moments of disappointment that might have been expressed to close friends at times.
I don't think momentary disappointment that things are not the way you hoped and expected is wrong.
But I think to continue being disappointed, particularly when your child has good offers from good unis and their life is unlikely to be negatively affected by this is any way, is quite selfish and I'm sure your son will be aware of that.
That's a burden that children shouldn't have to live with.

OP,

I also think you have got a bit of a kicking. I hope my thoughts will sound constructive. I am prompted to write by your mention that your son may be interested in research. I’m assuming you mean he is considering the possibility of a PhD followed by an academic/industrial/government research career.

Until recently I was a STEM lecturer and Admissions Tutor in an RG university that is not Oxbridge/Warwick/Imperial but overall has a more glam reputation than Glasgow. Through my DH I know several academics in Glasgow Maths, and I know how PhD admissions work.

As PPs have stated, Glasgow Maths is v
highly ranked. Some of the academics are outstanding (and most are well connected). If your DS excels there he will be a good candidate for any postgraduate programme in the country.

(Is he doing an MMath? The norm now is to do an MSTEM or MSc before applying for an elite PhD.)

While the average level of the students won’t be the same as at Oxbridge etc, Glasgow has its share of excellent students. Your DS should be able to find his level.

If a chill really does come over the room when his plans are announced - and I hope this is wrong, I wouldn’t want such associates - it is based in ignorance and a very shallow view of what it means to find the best fit between the university and the student. As an Admissions Tutor I spent a surprising amount of time dealing with Oxbridge transfers. My own DH did not particularly like Cambridge Maths (undergraduate 2.1 and Part III Distinction) and turned down the offer to do his PhD there in favour of a distinctly less glam place. He has had a very successful academic career by any measure.

We can’t know whether your DS was one of the many unlucky applicants this year who were victims of the knock on effects from COVID or whether he isn’t currently in a position to thrive at C/I/W. But Glasgow can be a wonderful option and if he uses his time there well the world will be wide open to him afterwards.

I am not sure the OP was badly advised by her school either. In our case my DS was told v clearly by his teachers to apply for Cambridge and the LSE, because his predicted grades exceeded their offers. He was still rejected. There are a lot of clever hard working kids out there!

We too have made great sacrifices, as has DS. Actually, we moved countries for sixth form and DS gave up all his friends. But sadly sacrifice is not a guarantee of "result". Eventually one just has to believe that everything happens for a reason, otherwise life is very tough.

I meant predicted grades exceeded usual offers!

There is rather more to being a good Oxbridge candidate than having predicted grades that exceed usual offers..thats hardly rare..

I agree, which is why I assume DS did not get in:) I just don't think the OP deserves such tough love,and I do not think she is transactional. I think it is human to be disappointed, and the pandemic has made us all less resilient. We just can't let disappointment take over.

@CloudberryMess "Any awkward conversations with other parents will be over in five minutes whilst your relationship with your DS will last your lifetime."

One of the most sensible things I've read on MN in ages! We forget our long term relationships with our DCs at our peril.

I’m a bit surprised that any credible candidate for Cambridge maths would not receive an offer from Warwick? I think this would be worth following through.

WRwick used to give all maths applicants an offer pretty much regardless of predicted grades and it was up to the applicants to make the grades. Has this changed this year?

Your poor son. He is likely disappointed himself without adding your disappointment in. You need to put a smile on your face, hug him, congratulate him on what he has achieved and help him decide which of the offers he wants to accept.

It's ok for you to feel disappointed BUT you shouldn't allow your DS to see it. I agree with @MarchingFrogs but I am a product of a private education from a school which regularly comes in the top 10 of independent schools yet I had a shit time. I was taught in a class of 34 and unless you were applying for Medicine, Law or Oxbridge, nobody gave a shit. I had a 100% scholarship, not from the school but my LEA which always funded around 20 to go to the independents, That stopped the year after me for political reasons, but I'm delighted my parents didn't have to sacrifice anything for my schooling. I went to what is now a RG uni but in those days, you only needed a grade C in my subject to get in.

As a result of my experience and due to the fact that an academic and a P/T teacher cannot afford to put 2 DC through private schools where they themselves are not employed, we vowed that our DC would access state provision. We are lucky in that their school was/is amazing. Both DC were interviewed by Cambridge, one went (now studying for a PhD there) and the other is at a non-RG uni having a really good experience and acing her course.

Am I disappointed? No. Would my DC have done well at private school? Maybe, maybe not. What matters most to me? That they are happy and enjoying their chosen path. I believe very strongly that things happen for a reason. DC2 was gutted when they were rejected for about 3 days. They picked themselves up, chin up and got themselves a fantastic bursary at their current uni.

Anecdote but fact that many of my UK peers in the top echelons of research at Oxbridge, Ivy League and equivalent in Europe, did not do their first degree or even doctorate at the universities mentioned in the OP. Additionally there is an influx of international talented researchers for whom a degree at for example a lesser ranked European university is not a barrier to their achievements. I don’t discount that some still make assumptions on the basis of particular university trajectories but actually they are proved wrong again and again by the reality, certainly in the metric of really impactful research work.

@AmyWhiteshead a major advantage of Glasgow is that your DS can explore studying other subjects and inter disciplinary opportunities

OP, I think your morale would be boosted by reading the chapter on elite college applications in Malcolm Gladwell’s book David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits and the Art of Battling Giants.
(See also his talk on Youtube entitled Why you shouldn’t go to Harvard which covers some of the same material in less depth.)

Gladwell’s contention is that, in the long run, it’s better to be a big fish in a small pond than vice versa and he presents some interesting statistics to support his argument.

He looks at two groups of students who were hopeful of gaining STEM degrees. One group managed to get into Harvard, although they are not the high-flyers there, the other group go to a less prestigious university. The students in both groups performed at a roughly similar level during the high school years.

You might think that the Harvard students would be inspired to do well by observing their brilliant peers. But that isn’t what happened. Instead they became demoralised. Some dropped out. They decided they weren’t very good after all. But those at the less prestigious university compared themselves to their classmates and felt pretty content. They did well and completed their degrees.

You might then think that the students at elite universities who survived their courses would at least benefit later from having been exposed to a more challenging curriculum. But even that doesn’t seem to necessarily be the case. Gladwell illustrates this by looking at the early careers of economists who completed courses at different universities. Those who attended prestigious universities, and were the top performers there, were the most successful. No surprises so far. But after that came the top performers from less prestigious universities. They did better than those who went to prestigious universities but were slightly below the top performers.

The key to success, according to Gladwell, is to go to a university where you can be one of the top dogs. Don’t be seduced by the prestige factor and don’t underestimate the potency of the psychological boost of being better than those in your immediate vicinity, whatever your absolute level of ability.

I hope that has not been too long-winded for you!

It’s also hugely insulting to suggest (as the OP did on the previous page) that only students at prestigious unis are bothered about their subject. She seems to think her DS won’t be challenged by them, whereas presumably he will be working at the same standard as the others, given he wasn’t in fact able to gain a place at Oxbridge.

@Gosports sorry you find it insulting but I think on the whole this is true. A bright, driven and ambitious DC is not going to apply for a lower ranking Uni.

Perhaps in the world of some private schools, but most of the other applicants still subscribe to 1 or 2 aspirational, 2 or 3 realistic and 1 sure bet. Only a super confident state school applicant would restrict themselves to 5 from Oxbridge, UCL, LSE, Bristol, Durham, Warwick & Exeter.

I agree with Gosports and actually find it quite sad that you believe that a bright, driven and ambitious DC is not going to apply for a lower ranking Uni chopc. Actually this whole thread is very sad if parents really still feel that they should be able to buy a place at certain universities just because they've paid for their child's education.

@HewasH2O happy to have different points of views but for example to get into a high ranking Uni- all students need to achieve certain grades. This to me means they will be in a peer group of students who are at a similar levels to them? There are always exceptions of course

I personally don't know any DC who are academic, driven and ambitious who applied for low ranking Unis. Unis are a path to future careers and no point getting into debt by going to Uni if it's not going to help you in your path. It's too expensive to be for the experience and a rite of passage these days.

And no I don't think the point of the thread is you expect to buy your DC a place at top Unis. It's about prioritising education and sacrificing to giving the DC the best they can and then being disappointed for DC as opposed to in DC when they don't get on the path you envisaged for them

It can be the same if you move house or don't take up a certain job etc in order to support DC. Don't necessarily have to pay for education to make sacrifices