Is an EPQ worth doing?

[Barwell76]

My ds is in year 12 and is unsure whether to do an EPQ. I know his 6th form do offer them but they havent mentioned them yet. I dont know much about them.
He wants to do Computer Science at Uni and from looking at uni websites, some but not all seem to give one grade lower on their offer if you achieve an A.
My ds seems to think that he should concentrate on his A levels subjects to try to get the highest possible grades rather than spread himself too thinly by doing the EPQ, but is unsure what to do.

@mumsneedwine - Thank you

I can only speak from my own experience but my DS got a lot if benefit from doing an EPQ - with the emphasis on the doing. He learned a number if new skills, worked harder at his A levels because he could see practical applications of what he was learning in theory and gained a lit if self confidence from solving a real life problem by designing and buikding something which is now in daily use. It also put him massively out of his comfort zone as he struggles with social interaction and had to talk to a lot of people during his project. Could he have gained all that in other ways had school not mandated an EPQ? Almost certainly. Would he have? Almost certainly not. He benefitted from having to do it in a structured way, and particularly as most of it was done in lockdown many other activities were unavailable anyway.
My DH used to work in a University department in a similar field and said the project DS produced, whilst not final year project standard, would certainly have got him good marks at the end of first year or middke of second year so it will hopefully have learned things he can build on.
It has been a major talking point got potential employers during his gap year and the UCAS points were included by the University he is going to so I think it has very worthwhile for him. But he isn't a 4 A Oxbridge aspirant with a CV bursting with extra curricular activities so I can well believe that it was of more value to him than some others. He's going to dare I say it, an ex Poly. Sorry to lower the tone - I know plenty of Mumsnetters would have me throw him out onto the street for bringing such shame on the family - but actually thousands and thousands of young people go to study at such establishments every year and lots of them are* interested in the EPQ grade. How much value it is to an individual will vary according to a lot of things but I wouldn't write it of as pointless for everyone.

My view is that the EPQ was definitely beneficial to my DS who has started studying Medicine this year. His view is that the EPQ is what you make of it and he used it to delve quite deeply into an aspect of Medicine that he was very interested in. He thoroughly enjoyed the research, writing it up and was invited by his school to their showcase evening where he got to do a presentation to an audience, which included teachers, governors, parents etc. with medics among them. He was required to take open floor questions afterwards(some quite medically-oriented). He got great positive feedback afterwards and said that experience was invaluable preparation for his med school interviews, both for thinking on his feet under pressure and building general confidence. His EPQ also led to a reduced offer from one med school.

@Barwell76
Your DS wants to do Computer science. If he is doing CS A-level there will be an NEA (large project) so probably no need to do another one as an EPQ.
What is helpful for CS at uni is Further Maths AS level if his school offer it (appreciate might be too late to start).
Other than that, doing a coding project in his own time and writing about it in his personal statement would probably be a better bet.
What A-levels is he doing?

He is doing Maths, Physics and CS A levels. He didn't want to do Further Maths A level, the school did suggest it but he wasn't keen. I don't think the school does AS level Further maths.

It was useful to my DD. A few of the Universities she applied to lowered her offer by one grade if she got an A in the EPQ. But regardless of that, it was useful for my daughter to do something that involved extended writing, as her A levels were Maths, Chemistry and biology. She had also scored high in her GCSE essay subjects. realistically she'd have been a great candidate for the IB if it had been offered at a 6th form anywhere in our county. So yes, in her case useful to keep some breadth now that AS levels are rarer.

The process of learning how to research, do a literature search, cite references etc... should also be useful for her at University.

Blimey, that kicked off!

I'm sorry @goodbyestranger that you saw the EP as a waste of time. Both my DDs did it and found the research, writing and time-management parts invaluable. From my last 2 year 13 cohorts, I have not had one student who has just knocked it out in a few months. As you well know, these too are excellent students.

@mumsneedwine I am not sure what the weekly diary is that you refer to. The WJEC learner record needs a write up about the weekly parts of the induction course but after that, it is up to the student how often they log what they are doing. Life gets in the way when you are 16/17/18 and the best laid plans of students early on tend to go awry. Part of the skill of the course is recognising when you miss your own deadlines, reworking them and working out the priorities. As long as you document and reflect on these, you can still get full marks.

I haven't replied on the other thread. It makes me sad that parents are either so over-invested in the minutiae of their DC's uni lives or have prepared them so poorly for independence. This coming week, my year 12 EP group are having a talk from our school's librarian on research and referencing. I keep an eye on how they are getting on with it in terms of their EP. By the time they finish, mine are confident and ready to hit the ground running at university.

DS has said that he has found his EPQ very helpful in regards to looking at the whole approach to independent learning needed from a university student.

As an aside we were told by the head of the school of mechanical, aerospace and automotive engineering at Coventry University that they feel that an EPQ is considered very worthwhile.

It helps if a university course asks for UCAS points rather than specific grades. Having an A in EPQ definitely increased up my daughter's choices.

Hi I think some of the advice on here about EPQs may be a little out of date. Straight from the horses mouth - when the admissions director from Bath University visited DD’s school he was very clear that the EOQ is something they most definitely do recognise and value. To the extent they will make lower offers to those with an A or A* EPQ.

Up until a couple of years ago, it used to not be taken that seriously as not all schools offered it. But this has now changed.

Cambridge have pointedly changed their admissions advice page only last year to the effect of - “We recognise the EPQ and, although an offer will not be conditional on it, we strongly recommend students do one if at all possible.”

UCL are also very keen on EPQs as stated on a virtual open day.

I think if you go into an EPQ with the attitude that it’s a box-ticking exercise, then obviously, you are likely to lose interest very quickly and drop out. The one my DD did was some 15,000 words long. It took a huge amount of research - I think she had over 350 sources in the reference section. It also acted as a springboard for her because it gave her an idea for a response to an international essay competition question - which she won (out of thousands of entries). Then she wrote another spin-off paper and this was published in a journal. So, the EPQ really inspired her and thanks to the things it led to, her personal statement for uni wrote itself. Unis state they want you to prove interest beyond the curriculum. It’s all very well saying you’ve read this and that, but actually putting pen to paper and synthesising your independent reading into an original and coherent investigation is another matter.

Also, the footnotes for the EPQ are not what you might think. Every footnote is evaluating the source. She had about 700 footnotes. It was a massive undertaking.

She did find the diary a bit “extra”. She enjoyed the presentation. As for deadlines, I don’t remember it being a big deal. They just want to check you’re getting in with something and not leaning it all to the last minute - because you can’t leave it all to the last minute!

My DS has just returned from a job interview (gap year) at which his EPQ pretty much sealed the deal.🙂

Malbec the fact that both your DDs were scientists may affect their view of the value of the EPQ. To be fair, the DC least irritated by it was DS4, also a pure scientist. My other DC were all humanities of in DS1s case, the three sciences plus a humanity. But can I just say that when you do wing something at school, it does involve not necessarily making it obvious to members of staff :)

*or in DS1s case

Dd2 got five lower offers this year because of her EPQ. It was so beneficial in that respect that Dd3 is definitely going to do an epq instead of core maths - I'd rather she did core maths but as I've seen first hand the evidence of lower offers due to EPQ (must get an A though!) an epq it is.

Good RG unis (Exeter Durham Nottingham) and Bath BTW

To sum up: EPQs for stem (or geography/practical) = good. EPQs for humanities = debatable.

The content is less important marks wise than the presentation and “box ticking” . Therefore it is possible to get top marks without producing something of great academic insight/worth.

Of course if a pupil is genuinely fascinated by a subject then it is a useful and possibly beneficial addition. But it is unlikely (if at an ordinary school) to be marked with any in-depth knowledge.

I examined the EPQs on display at the sixth form open evening. Frankly I was surprised, to say the least, that A grades had been awarded to very lightweight projects (eg, as I remember, “A comparison of Jane Austen and Charlotte Bronte” - encompassing only two books ) as well as real labour of love EPQs.

I think also that EPQs might have been of some value during the CAGs horror, but if A Level standards get back to “normal” then the best grade possible in those should be the student’s priority.

I just had a Google. In terms of UCAS points, an A at A-level is worth 56 points. An A EPQ is worth 28 points (so exactly half an A-level).

For comparison, a Grade 8 with Dist. for a musical instrument or singing (ABRSM or similar) is worth 30 UCAS points. I was surprised by that, tbh.

I don't think ucas points are relevant for most rg unis tbh

To sum up: EPQs for stem (or geography/practical) = good. EPQs for humanities = debatable

Dd2 applied for History and got reduced offers due to an A* epq.

Frankly I was surprised, to say the least, that A grades had been awarded to very lightweight projects (eg, as I remember, “A comparison of Jane Austen and Charlotte Bronte” - encompassing only two books confused

That's not necessarily lightweight. They don't cover this kind of author comparison at A level

I don't think ucas points are relevant for most rg unis tbh

I thought that too, but there is an FOI request made by someone on WhatDoTheyKnow for the subject one of mine is applying to at Cambridge, asking for the qualifications of all successful / unsuccessful candidates. I was surprised to see not only EPQ grades, but also music grades and D of E, listed alongside the A-level grades for all candidates.

Interesting!

I got an A*, my subject choice helped me in my interview for a grad job to show my interest in resourcing, planning, execution etc. as the job was in Finance. I got the grad job and a scholarship at Uni and I don't doubt it helped me.

Dds friend got into Oxford and they discussed her epq at interview. It was on conspiracy theories in the Simpsons
Hardly formulaic or tick box!

@treguffin - trust me, it was featherweight .

If personal statements aren’t read at “recruiting” universities (or even more sought-after ones) then it would seem worthwhile to do an epq to automatically get a lower grade. It confuses me, though, as how do they know if the epq was brilliant or meh? At least public examinations (ie A Levels) are normally standardised.

For Oxbridge it’s a toss up. If you hope they’re going to talk about something you want to talk about at interview…. you’re probably going to be very disappointed!

I think some unis do read personal statements, whatever mumsnet insists.