DD wants a RG Uni that does F2F teaching - which will?

[mugglewump]

My DD is in the process of choosing which universities to apply for and wants Russell Group. After hearing Manchester say that blended learning will continue indefinitely, she has decided that F2F learning is (unsurprisingly) important to her. She is interested in Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle, Nottingham, Bristol, Kings, Cardiff and Southampton and would like to know which of these have declared an intention to return to face to face learning for 2022. If you have a DD or DS at any of these and know the uni's intention in terms of course delivery, can you share it please? She wants to study geography. TIA.

I echo that teaching online and in-person at the same time does NOT work if you require any student interaction. We've tried for the last year, thrown a lot of equipment at it including multiple cameras, camera operators and technicians but it's impossible for many subjects. I run a course with practical labs, workshops etc and we have been 4 days in person and 1 day online per week (we are an exception). It has been extremely difficult for both staff and students.

Anytime someone tests positive, 2 weeks of lessons (30 contact hours per week) have to be switched online. This is impossible as it means re-designing lessons, creating more visuals and resources etc. Will be interesting to see how this may change with vaccinations but many students choosing not to vaccinate so still 10 day isolation. Every week feels like you're preparing for the rug to be pulled from under your feet, so I can understand why many are choosing to keep portions online as it does give the students and staff more stability than the constant change.

At my uni, we've only planned up until December.

I got shouted down on a previous thread when I reported the factual information that our students had said in a survey that they wanted lectures online and asynchronous.

Most wanted inperson seminars, workshops and tutorials, although some preferred 1-1s to be online.
In the autumn, our offer is asynchronous online lectures, online 1-1s (but F2F if requested) and F2F seminars and workshops.
TBH, pre-pandemic, we had already been questioning bringing 3-400 people together for lectures as some of ours have to travel a fair distance. The pandemic forced us to set up the technology and now it makes sense not to go back.

I have a contact who works for a University and they have been told learning will still be a combination of blended learning with a ratio of 60:40 or 40:60. I can’t remember which way around she said but they have been told not to communicate this information to the students.

Why on earth would it? If it's online you can watch it later

The poster you responded to suggested that we deliver teaching in person while streaming simultaneously online. Having tried this I can categorically say it does not work. It is utterly shit for all involved if you require any student interaction as part of the session.
It can work if all you are doing is delivering a lecture with no student interaction. Although, the live streaming bit can be tricky so we will record the lecture and ensure it is online for those who missed it by the end of the day. We've ben doing that years.

Amazing how many so called uni lecturers post on here absolutely convinced students actively want to study in their rooms 100 % of the time

No, what is amazing is how many posters have convinced themselves this is what lecturers have said. NOBODY HAS SAID THIS!!!!!!!
What we are saying is that a blended approach is very effective and that some online teaching and learning can be beneficial and of good quality.
I'm planning my term one sessions this week. I'm doing a mix of online and on campus teaching supplemented with some pre-recorded information. I'm planning very carefully what will work online and what will work on campus - it's not just thrown together and the online stuff will benefit the students as they enter the workplace as these are important skills. The pre-recorded stuff is just intros and info on assessments - everything else is live and timetabled.

Yes I have students with work and/or caring responsibilities who were extremely grateful to have online lectures. Students lives are much more complicated (and difficult) than when I was a student in early-mid 2000s and the modern degree structure needs to reflect that.

@Scarby9

I got shouted down on a previous thread when I reported the factual information that our students had said in a survey that they wanted lectures online and asynchronous. Most wanted inperson seminars, workshops and tutorials, although some preferred 1-1s to be online. In the autumn, our offer is asynchronous online lectures, online 1-1s (but F2F if requested) and F2F seminars and workshops. TBH, pre-pandemic, we had already been questioning bringing 3-400 people together for lectures as some of ours have to travel a fair distance. The pandemic forced us to set up the technology and now it makes sense not to go back.

This is exactly what our students said too.

Nobody is going to be locked in their room either, despite what some posters have told themselves!

Amazing how many so called uni lecturers post on here absolutely convinced students actively want to study in their rooms 100 % of the time

Well, this so called uni lecturer has tried to explain that teaching at a university doesn't usually consist of 100% lectures as many of the parents on here seem to assume. In the example I gave, even with all of the lectures online, a student would be spending just over 3% of the time allocated to to the whole module watching lectures in their room... or in any of the many other places they choose to study.

Probably less in reality, as they tend to watch at 1.25 or 1.5 times playback speed.

I think most places will move towards blended model eventually. Realistically a lot of students work now while studying so being able to catch up when they’re free is often a positive. The attendance rate for lectures is generally shockingly bad (probably see a boom post covid then go back to normal). A blended model works well for the majority of students. Manchester and other HEAs have done the right thing to set out early their intentions. There will be a lot of disappointment for institutions promising face to face if things get tricky again over winter and they have to go back on these promises.

As a side note - unis seem to rely on the income from student accom, more and more. How will moving to a blended model work for this? It seems that income will fall? It seems odd to be trying to compete with existing online models which are sometimes cheaper. Students will be able to shop around and go international too. I think the rush to use more online content will lead to job losses? It leaves the door open for competition for undergrad courses from businesses etc

Am assuming Universities will ensure their students all have the IT required for on line from now on. Not like last year where many poorer kids had no access as libraries were shut or full and they didn't have a laptop that could cope. And no one seemed to care when told. Cameras on required great wifi and was impossible if in family home and 5 people trying to use it at same time.
Poor lecturers will no longer be required once everything recorded as only needs doing once and then same stuff can be used for years. And my DD's course is 80% lectures so not a small amount. Please don't generalise as I know that is frowned upon.
I'm sure I'll once again be told I'm wrong, stupid, don't understand Universities, all the students who tell me they hate on line are wrong etc.
I have managed to teach on line and in person (with lots of interaction) at the same time since September but that's because school teaching is very different to University teaching (even though I've done both and don't see that much difference- one is a lot easier though).
These threads always go the same way. Parents say their kids want f2f. Uni staff say no they don't, on line is brilliant and much better for everyone. Parents disagree. Uni staff belittle their opinions and basically tell them 'tough'. Generally.
I hope the students make their feelings very clear this autumn.

@mumsneedwine I’m sorry you feel like that and I agree the last year has been awful for students. I suppose lecturers have the benefit of seeing large numbers of students so may understand more the whole cohort needs rather than parents who only have their own child/peers in mind. Lockdown is an anomaly and absolutely no one wants the teaching how it’s been that year. Pre covid we certainly had lots of responses on the NSS that preferred a blended approach and anecdotally students do prefer that (rather start a 9am lecture in their pjs at home than have to be up way before to make their way in). Non attendance for lectures was high and the technology to catch up/view from home wasn’t as advanced so students missed a lot. It’s like WFH for most people- fine and a positive if as and when but not great fully. I don’t know many students who’d want to be on F2F whether lecturers, seminars or group work Mon-Fri 9-5. That’s when a blended approach works well.

@Newgirls

As a side note - unis seem to rely on the income from student accom, more and more. How will moving to a blended model work for this? It seems that income will fall? It seems odd to be trying to compete with existing online models which are sometimes cheaper. Students will be able to shop around and go international too. I think the rush to use more online content will lead to job losses? It leaves the door open for competition for undergrad courses from businesses etc

You understand that blended involves on campus teaching too don't you?

It's very different to the OUs model so I don't think universities that permanently move to a blended model will lose huge numbers that way.

The sector already has a space for private providers - we saw a huge increase in 2012 when tuition fees were increased and people were predicting similar things to what your saying - but it didn't happen. There are a few private providers who do recruit well BUT on the whole they're highly problematic ( not all obviously).

Nobody is suggesting we move everything online permanently. Most of us are trying to improve the student experience and believe it or not, blended is very effective,

mumsneedwine the reason you believe threads only go one way is because you refuse to take anything any academic says on board. You've decided we're all wrong and I genuinely don't think anything anyone says will make a difference.

Poor lecturers will no longer be required once everything recorded as only needs doing once and then same stuff can be used for years.

I'm trying to work out in what sense you're using the adjective "poor" there. If you mean bad lecturers, then why would a university want to use a recording of them repeatedly? If you mean unfortunate lecturers, it is far from clear that what you're suggesting is legal: the issues of performance rights are still being debated, although it's clear the copyright does belong to universities.

But, to come back to the more important part of what you are saying...

Any lecture that is still current and valid several years after it is given probably wasn't worth giving in the first place. Most of my lectures are at least partly out of date by the time I do them again the next year. Everything has to be updated constantly; some lectures have to be completely rewritten because of major advances over the previous 12 months. By the time I finished my PhD (early nineteen-nineties), substantial parts of what I had learned as an undergraduate were no longer widely accepted as being correct. And research has accelerated since then. The point of university education is that it takes students close to the frontiers of current research. That's why university isn't school and shouldn't be anything like school.

And my DD's course is 80% lectures so not a small amount.

I'm really struggling to work out what your daughter might be studying, or what the point of a course that is 80% lectures would be. How do students develop academic skills if they spend 80% of their time being told stuff?

These threads always go the same way. Parents say their kids want f2f. Uni staff say no they don't, on line is brilliant and much better for everyone. Parents disagree.

We have asked students. We have surveyed them until they are sick of being surveyed. The majority say they want lectures online and everything else face-to-face. This is what all the lecturers here are saying. I have my student feedback in front of me: they liked my online lectures and want these to continue; they hated my online practicals and workshops and will hang, draw & quarter me if I ever try to do them again, so I won't.

Exh has been told they are 100% f2f and staff must be on site at least 3 days a week from mid September. None of the professors are impressed because they were mostly at their holiday homes, including exh!

As a side note - unis seem to rely on the income from student accom, more and more. How will moving to a blended model work for this? It seems that income will fall?

Blended doesn't necessarily mean less time being taught on campus.

Poor lecturers will no longer be required once everything recorded as only needs doing once and then same stuff can be used for years.

You obviously have no idea what lecturers actually do.

Surely it will? If students only need to go in for say, two days a week for the blended eg tutorials then some will commute.

It will depend on the course content but for some the balance will tip into not needing to stay near campus. That will suit some of course.

@Newgirls

Surely it will? If students only need to go in for say, two days a week for the blended eg tutorials then some will commute.

It will depend on the course content but for some the balance will tip into not needing to stay near campus. That will suit some of course.

My students are only in two and a half days a week anyway...... that was the same pre covid. There are many, many courses that don't require attendance on campus 5 days a week. That's always been the case.

So there is going to be even less time on campus?

This year I doubt much will change but over the next few years as new students start to realise (like the OP teen) and new alternatives pop up it seems fairly obvious to me. People will buy courses from say Cambridge online rather than a lesser known uni. It will be easier to increase online student numbers and they will go with the most prestigious courses.

@Newgirls

So there is going to be even less time on campus?

This year I doubt much will change but over the next few years as new students start to realise (like the OP teen) and new alternatives pop up it seems fairly obvious to me. People will buy courses from say Cambridge online rather than a lesser known uni. It will be easier to increase online student numbers and they will go with the most prestigious courses.

This year my students will have half a day less on campus..... so still two full days. The half day that is online is still live and timetabled but has allowed me to significantly increase the number of high profile guest lecturers because they can easily attend a session online.

This benefits the students hugely as we'd never be able to do this if everything was on campus. But by all means, carry on trying to make out we can't be arsed and don't care about our students.

So if a student only needs to be on campus twice a week then surely some will commute? It’s just pointing out that uni accom needs will shift. That will be financially helpful to some students. I think unis are being a bit naive perhaps more at management level than individual lecturers.

It’s exactly the same as office requirements as we continue working from home in industry. We’ve met a floor go at work. It’s just not needed anymore. The pret has closed. Will it return to pre covid? We shall see. Not for my business as the savings are huge and we can recruit more widely.

This new uni model will have an impact over time 🤷‍♀️

@Newgirls

So if a student only needs to be on campus twice a week then surely some will commute? It’s just pointing out that uni accom needs will shift. That will be financially helpful to some students. I think unis are being a bit naive perhaps more at management level than individual lecturers.

This isn't an issue for my university as we have a high number of commuter students anyway and we don't own any accommodation. However, my DHs university does. They are a destination city so people go to that university partly for the location. They have made it very clear that they are a physical university and online will be minimal.

Yes, things are likely to change but change isn't always bad!

Yes it could mean a big saving for some students and let them consider unis they wouldn’t before.

My old uni has been in a building frenzy. They might want to encourage students to be there!

Those without accom will prob not mind as much.