How on Earth do a level lower achievers get to uni with the grades that are being asked?

[NCTDN]

If I wanted to go to uni now, I'd have no chance. In my day, I needed three E grades to get into teaching, from which I've had a fabulous career.
DD is very lucky and looking at places asking for 3As (Not teaching) but I'm so shocked at how high everywhere asks for. I went to what was primarily a teacher training college and even that is asking for 3 alleged at grade b.
So my question is, what do teenagers do these days if they get grades C D or E? It must be so disheartening.

With respect I don’t think someone with three Es should go into teaching. Whilst there may have been a small amount of grade inflation I think the biggest change has been a levelling of education so there is less of a gap between private and public, and good and bad schools within each sector. Parents and teachers are more aspirational, which in turn means students are given better opportunities and expect more from themselves. When I was at school it was nerdy to do well, where now that has lessened. It was also unheard of to be tutored where now it is a useful tool where a student struggles with one subject. My children have gone to the same schools I have and have had a far superior education.

@Violetlavenders

I have been teaching undergrad students for years at the same institution. Despite the entry requirements steadily increasing over that time, I haven't noticed any change in the ability of incoming students.

Of course pupils haven't become more intelligent. It's simply grade inflation.

Employers understand this too.

I think it’s important for employers to understand that grades are not an indication of intelligence. The GCSE and A Level qualifications are not designed to measure intelligence and they don’t do that. Of course there is some correlation. Anyone with nine grade 9s at GCSEs is likely to be of at least above-average intelligence. But anyone who used those nine grade 9s to make a judgement that the person is more intelligent than someone with a mixture of grade 7s and 8s is placing a lot of weight on GCSEs to tell them something that they aren’t designed to tell you.

Some of the kids that get all grade 9s are your typical super-bright, very high IQ, genius-types. Others are reasonably intelligent kids who work very hard, take on feedback well, spend hours on end practising exam-style questions and their grades tell you much more about their work ethic than any measure of raw talent. Likewise, some very talented, high IQ, genius-types attend rubbish schools where they don’t get adequate teaching, find the exam specifications boring or restraining and never really apply themselves, have problems with behaviour or mental health that mean that they don’t walk away with straight grade 9s. If you want to measure “intelligence” then GCSEs are not the way to do it.

Kids might not be getting more intelligent but I think a lot of people don’t realise how much more seriously kids take their education compared to a couple of decades ago. I got my GCSEs in the early 2000s in a rough outer-London comprehensive. It was not cool to want to do well in exams and working hard was sneered at even in the top sets that I was in. That is just not the case in those same schools now. The young people that I work with now are so much more ambitious and spend so much more time on school work than when I was young. If you went to a grammar, leafy comprehensive or private school, then it might not look like much has changed in education... but step into a comprehensive in Newham or Hackney and what you would find would likely be unrecognisable compared to the late 90s.

When I did my O levels (1990) you could only take the subject at A level if you had at least a B in the O level. Someone with a grade E shouldn’t be taking the subject at degree level and certainly shouldn’t be teaching the subject.

If that doesn't point to grade inflation, I don't know what does!

It doesn’t
6th forms usually “manage out” students who are gOing to fail. It might seem harsh, but there is no point in taking A levels if they are going to fail. I took my A levelS in 1977, and even back then students who looked like they were going to fail were asked whether they really wanted to take the exams.

I really resent the comments about massive grade inflation because it simply isn’t true, although I would agree that there has probably beena slight element of grade inflation at A level and degree level. Posts by @Piggywaspushed and other teachers at the coal face on here are the ones we should be believing. DD achieved AAA at A level because she worked her socks off. She is working her socks off at university, and certainly is not finding her degree easier than A levels.

I didn’t do as well at A level as DD simply because I’m not as academically bright as she is, not because of “massive grade inflation”. We also didn’t have the resources at our fingertips that students these days do.

I agree that there may be extenuating circumstances on the day that exams were sat @Middersweekly, but a student who consistently performs at an E/U grade throughout 6th form, and has no other barriers to doing well such as dyslexia, health issues, slow processing, other issues, should maybe rethink their options.

The number of firsts from universities where grades on entry are low I think employers rightly now look at the whole package use GCSE, A levels and degree

I think you may be right there @twelly.

I hear you @RampantIvy on the “working your socks off” point. However, I and many others of my vintage (early 50’s) Wouk did argue we too worked out socks off but the reality was that only a small percentage would get awarded an A grade- it really was something quite unusual back then. As I said, enough for Oxbridge in my case with ABB (and a failed S level to boot). Every cohort works very hard, undoubtedly - a discussion about how the types of grades awarded face changed abs Uni requirements with them does not imply a criticism of current students

@RampantIvy I would strongly suspect that the majority of students working at E/U at A-level do have some kind of learning difference/MH issue/barrier to learning though. Some may just not be emotionally mature enough to engage at college. My point was that A-level as a standard concludes ones achievements at the end of the year under exam conditions. There are a number of reasons why someone may not perform well on the day. Students should not be written off and told university isn’t for them on that basis when taking a different form of level 3 qualification may get them university. Sometimes life experience and maturity is all that is needed to obtain the required level 3 qualification for university and many people on here have and do go to university as mature students and do very very well! Should they have written themselves off?

@Etulosba

graphic design which absolutely shouldn't need a uni degree to get that first job.

Unlike football studies, graphic design degrees are well established and have been offered since the 1930/40s in the UK. Yale university in the US started their graphic design programme in the mid 1950s

I don't think there shouldn't be GD degrees; but you more or less cannot get into GD without a degree. That should not be the case.

Last time I checked (a good year ago as DS was preparing to go to Uni) there was one apprenticeship in GD in the entire country on offer.

I agree with the poster who says our education system has not kept pace with society; and also with the poster re: BTEC and nursing, providing that somewhere along the line, those students are formally tested under pressure. Unrelated to this OP, but I do worry when I read of DD with dyslexia, dyscalculia, AHDH, who needs extra time and a scribe on all exams, has anxiety thus isn't required to sit exams, or find herself in any stressful situation.... goes into certain HCP professions. How is she going to cope when things suddenly spiral out of control and a cool, fast head is needed?

@Miljea that is one of the reasons Access to Work is there, to support those with specific learning difficulties to be able to do their job effectively.

@Miljea also the kind of courses you're talking about will involve many hours of work placement. That is when the student is put under pressure. Doing a three hour exam doesn't replicate the experience of making decisions on the job.

Far too many jobs specify degree level educated, when there really isn't a need.

Fortunately, where I work our HOD is less well educated than I am (only because she told me), but you wouldn't know it. She is an extremely capable senior manager, very knowledgable and with excellent people skills. As far as I know we only have four employees in our team of sixteen who have degrees.

She selects team members on whether they can do the job and whether they are a good fit within the team, not on the number of letters after their name.

However, I and many others of my vintage (early 50’s) would argue we too worked our socks off but the reality was that only a small percentage would get awarded an A grade

Yes. I worked very hard both at school and University and managed to get a 2.1 degree from a well known Russel group Uni. A First was extremely rare in the 1990s!

Today, the percentage of Firsts awarded is much higher. So that points to massive grade inflation.

So that points to massive grade inflation.

Grade inflatio, yes. But how massive?

Is it since universities became businesses and want to attract students of that calibre?

I lost the "n" there.

I think it’s important for employers to understand that grades are not an indication of intelligence.

I think employers know this and therefore often have their own entrance tests and interviews.

But if you've got 1000a of applications for a job then of course you're going to sort them by grades and reputation of University!

And, of course, employers will also look for other differentiating skills such as language or programming skills.

@Miljea both of your DC sound extremely bright and capable young people who have quite rightly decided to go to university as this will further their career. I agree that many employers expect a degree level qualification these days for seemingly entry level jobs that in decades past we could have walked into when you left school and worked your way up. I remember working in a bank at 17 with only GCSE’s to my name and some of my colleagues had degrees in the arts. We were getting paid the same wage. I’ve also worked under people less educated than myself. In terms of life experience and on the job experience however they had 20 years on me and were more than capable within their job role. What I will say though is that health care undergraduate degrees in particular are in high demand. It is not as simple as applying to university and getting a place. Prospective students have to attend rigorous interview days and most have to have some form of health care related work experience before they are taken on for students. The institutions offering NHS funded courses are largely RG’s and students are tested both in work related placements, essays and exams. Someone like you describe would likely not have made the cut.

Miljea re: not being tested under exam conditions for roles like HCP.

I do understand what you mean about certain roles needing people who can perform their best in exam situations, but this isn't the norm in health care tbh.

Of course, working in A&E requires people who can think accurately and fast on their feet multiple times a day. Other roles, like dentistry, optometry and other clinic based roles require people with highly developed inter-personal skills, a thoughtful and inquiring disposition and a love of attention of recording and reflecting on (even boring) detail.

None of these skills or attributes are assessed particularly thoroughly under traditional exam conditions tbh.

Grade inflatio, yes. But how massive?

www.bbc.com/news/education-48951653

The proportion of students in England awarded first-class degrees continues to increase - rising by 80% since 2010-11, the university watchdog says.

And the vast majority of this rise in grades is 'unexplained'!

You seem very invested in this violet. Why?

Why am I concerned about grade inflation?

Because unexplained grade inflation risks undermining the public's and employer's confidence in University education.

A University degree is very expensive and students expect their degrees to be worthwhile and respected.

I think as a country we should be interested in why every institution that is in the lower 2/3 of the university league tables gives out huge numbers of firsts. Most top level employers know these dc with the firsts are not the same as one with a first from LSE or Durham. They simply are not and their profile won’t read the same either. So firsts from some places don’t get the holder very far at all. Certainly in some humanities subjects.

Employers have to invest a lot more than the apprentice levy. Even before the pandemic, huge numbers of apprentices were existing employers and older. Proven staff. We need younger ones to be employed and their training to be high quality. Around 1/3 of degrees should be looked at for what value they actually add.

When I meet really bright people they achieve highly without working morning noon and night. They are the ones employers really want. Thinking quickly and acting accurately. Getting through work to a high level of employer satisfaction is vital and some people simply cannot do that even with high grades in exams.

@Violetlavenders - I got my 1st in 1995 and my DT’s both got theirs last year. Mine from LSE and DT’s from Warwick and York.

We see them as equal regardless of the different generations- the three of us were best in year.

How does Oxbridge etc separate the wheat from the chaff with all this grade inflation?

Interviews, extra tests.