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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Another year online?

785 replies

Ellewoods20 · 05/05/2021 17:42

Despite the easing of restrictions in June, some universities have informed students that lectures will remain online in the next academic year. What’s the point? :(

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 18/05/2021 18:08

@DelBocaVista YOU are. A lot aren't. Mostly on line is not blended learning. It's on line with the odd hour in person.

DelBocaVista · 18/05/2021 18:09

[quote mumsneedwine]@Bati hi. Won't get much joy on here from the Uni lot - you'll just be told to complain. You can take a year out for health reasons (one of DDs friends at another Uni tried to comitt suicide and has been allowed to start again in 2022). Hope she's OK. Bristol been better and have tried but next year it's more on line (unless they get angry).
I really don't think people understand what is being missed. Hope you're all happy when your vet googles the answers in 5 years.[/quote]
What would you like us to say?

mumsneedwine · 18/05/2021 18:11

@DelBocaVista that next year will be back to normal (barring a covid surge). That students will get the experience they expected when they signed the contract.
But that's not going to happen as apparently there is all this research that on line is better than f2f 🤷‍♀️

randomsabreuse · 18/05/2021 18:11

DH has done a load of CPD modules entirely online. He printed the slides then wrote his notes on them in the same way you would in an in person lecture. Lecturer showed some pictures and videos within the slides which he obviously watched. Some of them he screencast to our smart TV too. I don't mean a pdf of the entire lecture, but the slides in handout form then listen to the lecture while looking at the slides and only looking at the screen for specific videos if they're included (eg lameness videos).

DH has some of his lecture notes from his degree bound for reference... Physical paper notes of handouts with his annotations. He also has an entire bookcase of reference books.

I don't think he actually counted his whole year lectures (shared with medics and natscis) on physiology and pharmacology as contact time and learned a lot more from rotations and EMS plus lab based stuff such as dissection, none of which are properly done online.

His actual job involves a tonne of screen time, looking stuff up, typing notes on cases, he has a laptop, tablet and phone provided by the practice and uses all 3 a lot. X-Ray and ultrasound are laptops too. Lab results come in by email and are filed on patients' electronic record along with X rays and other reports.

mumsneedwine · 18/05/2021 18:13

@randomsabreuse how old is DH ? Does he live in a tiny room in a city where he knows no one ? Has he had lots of experience in learning his subject ? Does he have colleagues to talk through issues with ?

DelBocaVista · 18/05/2021 18:13

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista YOU are. A lot aren't. Mostly on line is not blended learning. It's on line with the odd hour in person. [/quote]
That is still blended btw......
Every university I have looked at is stating quite clearly that they are keen to get students back on to campus and many have said they they will be offering blended/hybrid learning. Including Bristol.

You obviously feel that this means most of the content is online or maybe your daughter has been told this but this isn't representative of all course and all universities. A point you seem very keen to ignore

mumsneedwine · 18/05/2021 18:15

@DelBocaVista I don't believe it, DD has been TOLD that's what's happening. As have her flatmates. No room for confusion, it's v clear in the email.
I don't count 80% on line as blended. I count it as mainly on line.

mumsneedwine · 18/05/2021 18:16

And I'm afraid students don't believe a word of what Unis are saying on websites, they saw how that can change v quickly once you've signed the contract. In Sept, way before lockdown or massive rise in cases.

mumsneedwine · 18/05/2021 18:18

@DelBocaVista and I'm no ignoring it. I said YOU are not doing it, but you seem to use what your Uni is doing as representative of the sector as a whole. Which it isn't.

DelBocaVista · 18/05/2021 18:18

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista that next year will be back to normal (barring a covid surge). That students will get the experience they expected when they signed the contract.
But that's not going to happen as apparently there is all this research that on line is better than f2f 🤷‍♀️[/quote]
You are being deliberately obtuse. I get you are angry but listen to what we are saying.

I have already said that my university is planning to be completely back to normal in September.

A few of us have decided to stick to blended because it actually works better for the students on our courses. I offered my students f2f teaching this week - they all voted to stay online. Tbh i was gutted as I really wanted to see them in person!

I suspect nothing I or any other academics say will make a difference though as you're just refusing to see any other perspectives and you ignore the bits that don't support your point.

DelBocaVista · 18/05/2021 18:19

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista I don't believe it, DD has been TOLD that's what's happening. As have her flatmates. No room for confusion, it's v clear in the email.
I don't count 80% on line as blended. I count it as mainly on line.[/quote]
Fair enough. You know best.

mumsneedwine · 18/05/2021 18:21

@DelBocaVista so when people don't agree with you you become abusive ? Wow.
I hope students get angry. This is about their futures. I hope they refuse to pay for accommodation if they are not required on campus most of the time. I hope they get some kind of a normal Uni experience. It's a shame adults can't give them that.
I need to mark year 13 assessments so those students can go to Uni to learn how to use google.

Needmoresleep · 18/05/2021 18:28

I think I am missing something. Surely higher education has been evolving, and recorded lectures have been a thing for a while. Dyslexic DD learns aurally so she usually chose to both attend and then watches the recording. Unlike a recent peer who attempted all-night binge watch of an entire lecture series the week before the exam. Online, or a mix, is a logical extension, even if social distancing were not needed.

Ditto, pandemic or no pandemic, quite a lot of group project work seems to happen in chats rather than in person.

Many work places will have changed forever. This includes Universities. But arguably the pandemic simply accelerated the process.

DelBocaVista · 18/05/2021 18:28

@DelBocaVista so when people don't agree with you you become abusive ? Wow.

Please can you point to where I have been abusive?
You do seem to think you know best because you work in a school. Unfortunately this isn't the case. I wouldn't dream of telling you how to do your job. Why am I fair game?
I hope students get angry. This is about their futures. I hope they refuse to pay for accommodation if they are not required on campus most of the time. I hope they get some kind of a normal Uni experience. It's a shame adults can't give them that.

I hope that those students that have had a poor experience get angry and complain. I've that said all along . I really hope they get to have a normal uni experience and will do everything i can in my remit to support that. And I know you don't agree but for my students that has included switching to a blended approach. This offers my students a huge amount of benefits.

I need to mark year 13 assessments so those students can go to Uni to learn how to use google

No need to be a dick - and yes, that comment was worthy of that response.

DelBocaVista · 18/05/2021 18:28

@Needmoresleep

I think I am missing something. Surely higher education has been evolving, and recorded lectures have been a thing for a while. Dyslexic DD learns aurally so she usually chose to both attend and then watches the recording. Unlike a recent peer who attempted all-night binge watch of an entire lecture series the week before the exam. Online, or a mix, is a logical extension, even if social distancing were not needed.

Ditto, pandemic or no pandemic, quite a lot of group project work seems to happen in chats rather than in person.

Many work places will have changed forever. This includes Universities. But arguably the pandemic simply accelerated the process.

Exactly this!!!!
dreamingbohemian · 18/05/2021 18:33

Wish I had the luxury of sitting on my sofa

Why are people so obsessed with sofas on this thread

I've been working (at a desk!) since 8 am but whatever

Needmoresleep · 18/05/2021 18:54

One of DDs group projects involved adapting computer game technology to medical use. I was describing some of the challenges DD had faced (time zones, key parts delayed by Chinese New Year, never having met her colleagues etc) to a computer games designer I know. He was impressed. He felt the whole experience would prove absolutely perfect for the modern workplace. He also felt it is one of the real strengths of British higher education that we expect students to work together and to solve problems. His firm has clusters spread across the world. There are advantages, but also big disadvantages. For example he found Zoom calls more exhausting than meeting face to face.

The same for students. some things will be better, some worse. But they will be more employable if they adapt to the demands of the day, than if they hanker after the familiar.

We have all had to learn how to do it. Even a boomer like me whose evening course is now on-line. Not as much fun, and no glass of wine or a chat. But great that I can be out of London and still attend, or watch on catch up. I still think Universities, or at least the one DD was at last year, have coped well. It was not the experience she wanted, but I don't think she feels that her education and knowledge is any weaker as a result. (Disclaimer: obviously this is not true everywhere. A fifth year dentist was telling me that he will be getting additional supervision after graduation as his year missed out on a lot of practical learning.)

And yes there is lots of contingency planning for wifi failure. Both from the University and presumably by the student. (A couple of neighbours are on standby to take DD in if ours goes down, plus plenty of data, in case it fails half way through. The exam is downloaded at the start, and then time is allowed to up load, so scope to make an urgent call for help if the upload goes wrong.) DDs one concern was that her course tried to minimise cheating by adding to the time pressure. Not great for someone with slow processing speeds. But again the multi choice format, which is often used, suits her.

(And to lower the tone, an exam seems to have been bad if a "stress poo" was needed in the middle. As I said, there are some advantages to being on-line.)

Phphion · 18/05/2021 18:55

Interestingly, a lot of Bristol's plans and the rationale underpinning their decisions was 'leaked' online last month: Exclusive: Bristol Uni planning to scrap social distancing for September

randomsabreuse · 18/05/2021 19:02

Preclinical vet (I assume Bristol is still split rather than the model adopted by the newer vet schools) is very different to clinical years.

DH is in his 40s, one of his closest vet friends is someone he met online on one of his postgraduate modules... They message multiple times a day and ask each other questions about interesting cases. Didn't physically meet for ages though. All of his uni friends were from his rotation group or college though, not the massive lectures.

This year has mostly been in lockdown, not just blended learning! University sports and music haven't been permitted, it has not been the usual experience!

Kazzyhoward · 18/05/2021 19:04

@Needmoresleep

I think I am missing something. Surely higher education has been evolving, and recorded lectures have been a thing for a while. Dyslexic DD learns aurally so she usually chose to both attend and then watches the recording. Unlike a recent peer who attempted all-night binge watch of an entire lecture series the week before the exam. Online, or a mix, is a logical extension, even if social distancing were not needed.

Ditto, pandemic or no pandemic, quite a lot of group project work seems to happen in chats rather than in person.

Many work places will have changed forever. This includes Universities. But arguably the pandemic simply accelerated the process.

That's fine, places do indeed evolve over time. But Uni's need to be honest with their students. That way the student can "choose" which University matches their preferences.
Xenia · 18/05/2021 19:13

That link is a shame - less face to face but force students to pay a lot in rent when an occasional airbnb for what is actually face to face might be all the cost they really need to incur.

If people are vaccinated why can't you have large lecture halls full to bursting as before? Or show the lecture on a screen with lecturer safe at their house in the hall for all the students to go to?

Bristol exams online - why? It is not as good, not as easy to stop cheating, not as fair, relies on students having silence and wifi. At the very least let those who want to come in and do the exam in person to have that chance.

Needmoresleep · 18/05/2021 19:15

DD was in London last year, and STEM rather than medicine. Lots of students, including Europeans, never made it back in January, and presumably some, notably Asians, will struggle to be there for September.

Bristol are being very clear about the need for medics to be fully vaccinated before September. Given that the vaccination should be available to everyone by July, I assume they will expect the same for those on other courses. I wonder what they will do about their overseas students.

And randomsabreuse, interesting. I think it is the way things will be. Just like there were people who adapted quickly to email, and others who did not, some seem better at group chats. One bit of learning from online group working is at what point do you stop waiting for the person who never replies, and simply go ahead without them. (And how to accept gracefully that they will still claim their share of the credit.) Students seem to message each other constantly, even if they could meet face to face. It is the way they communicate.

IntoAir · 18/05/2021 20:18

Also I struggle to believe students are fuming about open-book exams (perhaps this is subject dependent)

A couple of universities I worked at back in the 1980s and 90s used open book, or take home exams. For a lot of subjects at university level - particularly the final year - the 3 hour life or death model of examining is inappropriate.

IntoAir · 18/05/2021 21:05

As a teacher I know that teaching students f2f is the best pedology [sic]

But if you read my post properly, slowly, trying to stop your anger clouding your comprehension (some deep breaths always help) you'll see I was referring specifically to the formal lecture - the old "chalk & talk" - where a lecturer stands in front of 200 students, and talks at them for 50 minutes.

For a long time, we academics have recognised that this is not necessarily the best way for students to learn actively.

Here's a Wikipedia article on the "Flipped Classroom" - you'll see that some of the research goes back over 20 years to the early 1990s.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom

JunoTurner · 18/05/2021 23:08

One bit of learning from online group working is at what point do you stop waiting for the person who never replies, and simply go ahead without them. (And how to accept gracefully that they will still claim their share of the credit.)

This is very simple, surely. You agree rules with the group during the first session or before work begins. Including that if someone hasn’t joined by the end of the 2nd meeting/by a certain date or communicated why they can’t, they’d viewed as no longer participating in the group project. All names of involved participants go on the work submitted. Straightforward. Job done, no need to seethe.