Another year online?

[Ellewoods20]

Despite the easing of restrictions in June, some universities have informed students that lectures will remain online in the next academic year. What’s the point? :(

mumsneedwine
What has your daughters university said about next years provision? Have they actually confirmed it will all be online?

Presumably universities need to consider accessibility for those with eyesight issues - eg providing PDFs of slides for printing then listening to audio only of the lecture (unless video being shown) - print the "slides" in handout mode and write notes on them.

I'd assume essays would be expected to be typed anyway.

I worked as a city lawyer, DH is a vet. You need some degree of recall professionally but mostly you need to know where to look things up in "good" sources, not just Google, especially for citations.

Most degree courses are more about teaching you how to think than about directly imparting knowledge.

Lectures were definitely not social occasions on my degree. There were 400 people in the year, faffing around trying to sit with friends you had not arrived with was not going to happen! Lab groups (for sciences), seminar groups (for arts courses) and people from university based social and sporting activities were much more likely to turn into friends than any social "contact" in a lecture hall.

Again, universities are not schools. We are allowed to do things differently!

@DelBocaVista yes Bristol have said lectures on line next year. And exams for Law will be on line forever. Kids are fuming.
And how can my DD access lectures from pdfs ??? She's learning to be a vet - should she just google stuff she doesn't know as can't ask a lecturer as never met one ? Please ask the vet husband how he'd feel learning his subject with so little contact time. Still having proctored exams, still have to get the same level to pass, still have practicals (even though done most of them once so far). How is any of that fair ? How is it fair that my DDs eyesight has deteriorated and will now continue to do so because she has to be on a screen all day.
Yes Unis can behave differently- we can see that very clearly.

Bristol have said lectures on line next year. And exams for Law will be on line forever. Kids are fuming.

Has she had the breakdown as to what that means for her specific subject? Can she transfer to another university that is offering more on campus content? Has she raised this with the SU?

And how can my DD access lectures from pdfs ??? She's learning to be a vet - should she just google stuff she doesn't know as can't ask a lecturer as never met one ?
I have agreed all along that this is poor.

Please ask the vet husband how he'd feel learning his subject with so little contact time. Still having proctored exams, still have to get the same level to pass, still have practicals (even though done most of them once so far).
My husband isn't a vet. Far from it. He runs a university careers service.

How is any of that fair ? How is it fair that my DDs eyesight has deteriorated and will now continue to do so because she has to be on a screen all day.

It's not fair. I agree with you.

Yes Unis can behave differently- we can see that very clearly.

You don't seem to understand why though as you keep trying to make direct comparisons.

@mumsneedwine

Not sure how it can be made clearer. Students want to meet their cohort, this is done before and after lectures. No lectures, no chance to meet. Student bedrooms are tiny - if they live streamed into lecture theatres then that would work, so why can this not be done ?

Is your daughter's course 100% large lectures?

Probably not, in which case she will meet other students in her seminars and practicals.

I believe you said she was doing vet med. Obviously you don't want to out yourself so I won't ask where, but I looked at what Liverpool are saying as they are apparently one of the top vet med schools. They say:

At the present time, we anticipate beginning the year with a teaching model which will combine the best of face-to-face teaching in smaller classes, laboratories and other environments as appropriate, together with virtual teaching sessions in place of lessons that would normally take place in large groups.

....Is your daughter's university saying anything like this? She can also ask the department directly what proportion will be f2f and online.

Also if she has optical issues she can ask her university for special arrangements to be made for her. There is software that can read lecture slides to you, for example.

@DelBocaVista what comparison did I make ??? I said why can't all exams be open book if that's what Unis do ? Makes no sense to use recall in exams and then not have to. Surely it should be consistent throughout education.
And no she can't transfer - she had 4 offers so chose her Uni carefully as she liked the structure. Seems like that is never going to happen. Lectures on line next year - some days she had 5 hours of these.
Students are demoralised and so much depression. They feel v let down. Academics might disagree but I think most parents will recognise all this.

Also I struggle to believe students are fuming about open-book exams (perhaps this is subject dependent)

@dreamingbohemian why should she need specialist software ? If lectures were in person then she'd be fine. She signed up and is paying for a course that is not happening next year as it was advertised.
Liverpool did not cover themselves in glory this year, as I believe their vets didn't have anything f2f in first term. So I'll take whatever they say with a pinch of salt.
And yes, currently her course is 80 % lectures. So she has another year of living in her bedroom to look forward to. I'm afraid I think it's a disgusting betrayal of the students. I hope they complain like crazy in Sept and cause a huge stink, they deserve something better.
Their SU seems pretty powerful as got them huge rent reductions this year. So we shall see. But we are going to have students who are google experts in their subjects.

The people doing the teaching were all good but there was a lot less time available for them to teach us compared with the situation at Oxbridge

For a long time, Oxbridge got a lot of extra funding to maintain their collegiate teaching system. And many Oxbridge colleges have private funds that most other UK universities could only dream of. Apparently you can walk from one end of England to another without leaving land owned by St John's Ox.

But in terms of face to face hours, I know my students get many more teaching hours than the equivalent at most Oxford colleges.

@dreamingbohemian they feel it cheapens them. And it's unfair that some are and some aren't but you get a degree from the same place. So no consistency from the same institutions. And no consistency on the same courses - Notts doing open book, Bristol doing proctored. For the same qualification, would you not be angry ?

@DelBocaVista what comparison did I make ??? I said why can't all exams be open book if that's what Unis do ? Makes no sense to use recall in exams and then not have to. Surely it should be consistent throughout education.

Really? Do you really think the way we assess GCSE students should be the same way we assess final year undergrads, Postgrads, doctoral students? What about different subjects - should all subjects have the same assessment methods? Or is it better that we tailor these for age, level of study, subject etc?

And no she can't transfer - she had 4 offers so chose her Uni carefully as she liked the structure. Seems like that is never going to happen. Lectures on line next year - some days she had 5 hours of these.
The i would really urge her to complain. I'm not sure what else to suggest. I don't work there.

Students are demoralised and so much depression. They feel v let down. Academics might disagree but I think most parents will recognise all this

You are generalising here. While i don't doubt that some students have had a poor experience this isn't the case across the board.

Universities are having to think about every possibility right now and make hard decisions without a crystal ball. It simply isn't possible to redo a complicated timetable, or a rewrite a practical (labs etc) course, at the drop of a hat if restrictions come back in in September/October. So we have to find a way of future proofing the planning that we do

@captainpantbeard this is absolutely correct and reasonable.

And pretty much every academic posting on this thread has tried to explain this, as you have.

But parents, seeing through a red mist of envy and anger, still insist we're all lazy sofa-shirkers. Because why would working academics know anything about how a university is run, or what good teaching is?

@DelBocaVista these are first years, why can't they be assessed the same way they were for A levels ?
And they have complained but too late for exams this year. They just have to try their best, hope the wifi works and the software doesn't crash. Lucky things. I assume they fail if the wifi fails ?

@IntoAir I get the planning. But please explain why students are being told lectures will now be on line for the next 3 years of their course ? Or why their exams will be too (I mean relying on wifi is always such a great idea). Please explain this to me ?

[quote mumsneedwine]@dreamingbohemian they feel it cheapens them. And it's unfair that some are and some aren't but you get a degree from the same place. So no consistency from the same institutions. And no consistency on the same courses - Notts doing open book, Bristol doing proctored. For the same qualification, would you not be angry ?[/quote]
There has never been consistency across subjects at the same
university or across the sector so this argument doesn't really hold up.

Any changes to assessments has to go though a validation process with evidence to show why you are making those changes. If your course has professional accreditation this will also need to be approved by the professional body. They aren't done on a whim.

Students want to meet their cohort, this is done before and after lectures. No lectures, no chance to meet.

Oh, my poor 2nd & 3rd year students. We have always deprived them of lectures. Therefore they are totally socially isolated.

You seem fixated on lectures @mumsneedwine - but you don't realise that in many universities, the lecture is seen as an old-fashioned and sometimes lazy form of pedagogy, and many universities & individual academics have been rethinking them for some time.

I'm surprised that as a teacher, you seem so uninformed & old-fashioned about pedagogy.

@IntoAir and no one had called academics lazy, we have asked why things can't return to normal. Not sure why academics seem to make this connection ?

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista these are first years, why can't they be assessed the same way they were for A levels ?
And they have complained but too late for exams this year. They just have to try their best, hope the wifi works and the software doesn't crash. Lucky things. I assume they fail if the wifi fails ?
[/quote]
BECAUSE THEY ARE NO LONGER AT SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My university has two entire floors set aside in the library for exams and we have made wifi dongles available for those who can't travel into the university

[quote mumsneedwine]@dreamingbohemian they feel it cheapens them. And it's unfair that some are and some aren't but you get a degree from the same place. So no consistency from the same institutions. And no consistency on the same courses - Notts doing open book, Bristol doing proctored. For the same qualification, would you not be angry ?[/quote]
Well personally I would have jumped for joy if I could have done my exams open book. But yes, I can see the inconsistency is a problem. That's probably inevitable given how much courses vary.

Are 80% of your daughter's lectures large lectures though? Smaller lectures will likely be f2f so it's an important distinction.

You can't assume what she had this year will be what she will have next year, we have explained a million times why.

@IntoAir and the insults start. Why ?
As a teacher I know that teaching students f2f is the best pedology. Please point me to the research that states on line learning produces better outcomes ? I'd be very interested to see the research Unis seem to building the future on.

@dreamingbohemian how would she know what size lectures they usually are ? She's never even set foot in the lecture theatre.
How are they going to teach in smaller groups - I'm continually being told this is not possible as staff can't do things more than once. Which I get.
So next year looks like 80% on line. Her friend at Notts gets to copy answers out of a book. She has to do (what seems to be very old fashioned) learn the stuff and recall it.
Wish I had the luxury of sitting on my sofa. I'm too busy teaching f2f. Getting the students ready for Uni - may tell them to practice their googling skills from now on.

Dd is 1st year vet student at Liverpool, she has had very little contact with the University this year and physically feels sick at the prospect of doing another year online. There has been nowhere near the amount of practicals that they should have done - they were told they would be catching up next year.
Even when they go to do a practical, it's done 2 metres away from the next person and in silence.
It's absolutely appalling.
Does anyone know if they can take a gap year or if a vet student can transfer to another university x

[quote mumsneedwine]@IntoAir and the insults start. Why ?
As a teacher I know that teaching students f2f is the best pedology. Please point me to the research that states on line learning produces better outcomes ? I'd be very interested to see the research Unis seem to building the future on.[/quote]
Google scholar is your friend .......

And we're talking blended learning which still involves a significant amount of on campus and f2f teaching.

@Bati hi. Won't get much joy on here from the Uni lot - you'll just be told to complain. You can take a year out for health reasons (one of DDs friends at another Uni tried to comitt suicide and has been allowed to start again in 2022). Hope she's OK. Bristol been better and have tried but next year it's more on line (unless they get angry).
I really don't think people understand what is being missed. Hope you're all happy when your vet googles the answers in 5 years.