Another year online?

[Ellewoods20]

Despite the easing of restrictions in June, some universities have informed students that lectures will remain online in the next academic year. What’s the point? :(

[quote dreamingbohemian]@Stirmecrazy I completely agree, any online elements going forward should be good quality. I think this is one thing we all agree on actually![/quote]
Hooray! I know lecturers think most parents are being whingy but in my case this is not the case . I am just desperate for my DD to get a good education. In two years you might find her manipulating your back (Physiotherapy student) and I think it is in all our interests that she has an adequate education (for the record she is going near my back at the moment!) I think this is the same for @mumsneedwine her DD is a vet student . I think parents of vocational subject degrees are probably more emotive about this subject as degrees are not their stepping stones to careers they are their careers full stop.

When my daughter went to Bristol there were caps on numbers everywhere. The state then changed the rules before my twins went so that for teenagers with I think it was AAB or higher numbers were not capped other than where the institution physically could not fit them in halls of residence and in lecture halls which became the new "cap" on numbers. Thus my son 13 years after his sister doing the same course at Bristol had double the number on exactly the same course.

Presumably if lecture halls' capacity is no longer and issue and if the private sector has built a lot of new first year accommodation the sky is the limit in terms of getting more students in.

@Stirmecrazy I honestly don't think parents or students are being whingy! Especially if your university is doing a crap job. I wish more people would complain, then the higher-ups might actually listen to their staff and do better.

I'm in dire need of physio actually so I hope your DD sticks with it : )

I honestly think next year will be so much better.

DD has been online all year.

Yes some of it has been crap, but that is pandemics for you.

The teaching, however, has been very good. The move online was impressively smooth and, though there have been a few niggles, DD has managed an array of different assessments: group projects, tests, and finals on line. With the likely benefit that the experience will provide good preparation for the post pandemic workplace.

Surely the blend next year depends on a mix of variables: need to be present; make up of the student body; progression of the pandemic etc. Universities will vary, courses will vary. DD was on a one year intercalation degree in London, so won't be there but it is very likely that a fair proportion of students won't be able to return in September. Not just India, Thailand and Malaysia are experiencing a sharp spike in infections. (European leaders who spoke out against AZ should examine their consciences. It is about the only vaccine available and people are wary of taking it.) It is very unlikely that all students will be allowed to return in September, especially if variants of concern continue to emerge.

What may happen, and something for Jo Grady to watch, is that it will become more obvious which Universities have reacted quickly and well. F2F is not the be all and end all. Universities can deliver a good education with a mix of learning types, but not all will. I think well managed, with well motivated staff will thrive.

And thanks to all the academics on this board who have helped keep things going.

I know the later years in at least 1 of the vet schools are getting in person practical teaching. But they're using bubbles to minimise the risk that a single person could close down the entire department for 2 weeks! Obviously need to preserve emergency service for the animals. I know at least one of the teaching sessions is online because they didn't want a vet in constant contact with the animal owning public (who might or might not be obeying Covid regs and, aren't necessarily reliable about wearing masks properly plus can't fully distance for safety reasons) to risk passing something to a student who could then pass it in to a surgery team. Very few of the staff are old enough to be vaccinated yet, other than those deemed CV...

Medics too, but it is not straight forward. Bubbles living together on placements and studying together. No physical presence in some clinics in order to limit numbers etc.

DD and her cohort are getting vaccinated, indeed they have been told to organise it so that they have their second dose at least two weeks before the start of the September term. Given the speed of the programme this ought to be possible for vets as well.

Difficult if you're in Scotland and you don't "organise" your vaccine but have to wait impatiently for a blue envelope!

I don't think all parents/students are being whingey but i think a few things get lots. We've had a pandemic - i get that students are not happy but no one is. Comparatively students as a group have actually had it easier than others. Universities cant just pretend that things were normal. Yes, vets, architects etc etc etc from this year might not be trained as well as previously but thats the price we pay for having gone through a pandemic. They are serious things comparable to a war. The UK had rationing until the 50s after WW2 - pandemics are not a joke. The change lives and students are not excempt from that.

Assuming we've now managed to put it all behind us - universities will of course engage with what provisions we need to put in place for next year.

But parents/students should also understand that new things can be learnt as a result of the pandemic. For example, the lecture is unnecessary as a form of live teaching for lots of degrees. They are outdated/lazy forms of teaching. In fact, students shouldn't be asking them to come back and should be pushing for more online/innovative solutions. Saying that we just want things how they were is silly. What if we can make things better.

All unis are planning to have f2f activities next year so parents should rest assured. For us it will be very difficult as we might also have to offer everything online for our international crowd who might not want to travel. But I guess parents/students dont care and we'll just get on with it

Yes, this year has been life-changing but perhaps certain things can actually be made better as a result.

@Needmoresleep thanks for sharing that! It's nice to hear about a university performing well.

I agree that universities will have more incentive to do well in online provision, it's something everyone will be looking at now. Even if things go back to normal this autumn, scientists are really trying to get us to understand that covid is not going away entirely. Students will want to know that if, god forbid, there is some future emergency, their university will handle it well.

@dreamingbohemian sadly i dont think anyone is listening. people just assume that covid is all sorted as of next week. lets hope that true

My blended course will have 70% on campus activity.

And my teaching from September is likely to be 100% on campus (indeed I'm teaching from next Monday, the exact day we're allowed to).

However, we are also planning for all our teaching to be flexible, in case we have to 'pivot' to online for some or all elements.

We also need to have the option for students who are in COVID isolation to join in remotely - now, that is a whole new teaching skill - accommodating students present in the room, and those joining remotely. But I do not want COVID-infected students in my seminar room!

And btw, my university has invested millions in twice-weekly C-19 testing and has done this for most of this last year - way before the government got off its arse to actually look after the UK population.

But hey, I'm a lazy, sofa-hiding, shirking academic who is lying about her knowledge & experience.

@FHOJfinf18 All unis are planning to have f2f activities next year so parents should rest assured.

Firstly, it's not just parents, it's the students, too, who are apprehensive as they don't want another year like the last one, especially for students whose lecturers & teaching staff never even set foot on campus all year.

Secondly, many Unis promised that last September but didn't deliver their promises. Yes, I know we had a lockdown in November and then again in January onwards, but for some, the F2F didn't happen in October nor December either, it never even started when the lockdowns/restrictions weren't in force and small group socially distanced F2F was allowed. For some Unis, that was because the teaching staff weren't on campus, so there was never going to be any F2F for those courses for the first term.

That's why people are kicking up a fuss. From the experiences of last Summer, the "promises" made by Unis aren't worth the paper/screen they're printed on.

If Unis DO deliver the promised "blended learning" with F2F tutorials, seminars, Q&A sessions, etc given by teaching staff who are actually on campus, then brilliant, that's all people are expecting. Lectures in lecture theatres can come later.

@Needmoresleep Thanks for your reasonable and balanced summary - it gives me heart that not everyone is incapable of seeing that we are in a global pandemic, and that university education is complex!

[quote FHOJfinf18]@dreamingbohemian sadly i dont think anyone is listening. people just assume that covid is all sorted as of next week. lets hope that true[/quote]
Desperately hoping for it to be true. Not what the scientists are saying though.

@dreamingbohemian @FHOJfinf18 it's magically disappearing in schools from Monday. It's a miracle 🤨

@user1497207191

I think everyone assumes that the blended learning set up is exactly what students will get

But a) am fed up with the assumption that university staff dont want to be on campus. I hate working from home on my own. Most of my colleagues are the same. We've always had WFH as an option for a couple of days a week. But I've never signed up to working from my fining table in the middle on my living room as my three year old plays and shouts. But there was a pandemic on and we had no choice. Dont assume that we all love being at home - it's lonely, hard work and frankly shit. I would love to go back to normal. I would have spend a year and half on my own. It's not nice. So dont assume we all think it's amazing.

Last year there was a pandemic. WIth social distancing, we simply couldn't give all students f2f teaching. That was not a lie. Blame Boris for being frankly shit at telling the public what is what and making stupid promises. We cant teach 40,000 students 2 meters apart. Literally no way, no chance ....... we would require more space than the whole of London would offer us even if we could commander the whole of the capital city.
If you dont like uncertain amidst a pandemic - go and have a chat with Covi, failing that have a word with Boris. We are trying our best here

@mumsneedwine Covid did not disapear. Schools were open to keep the economy working - not because they were space places to work. Same as supermarkets, hospitals, care homes etc etc

universities are not essential spaces to keep the economy/society running and were therefore shut. those labs that worked on covid etc were kept open as they were essential and those scientists went to work throughout because it mattered that they did for the rest of us

@FHOJfinf18

I don't think all parents/students are being whingey but i think a few things get lots. We've had a pandemic - i get that students are not happy but no one is. Comparatively students as a group have actually had it easier than others. Universities cant just pretend that things were normal. Yes, vets, architects etc etc etc from this year might not be trained as well as previously but thats the price we pay for having gone through a pandemic. They are serious things comparable to a war. The UK had rationing until the 50s after WW2 - pandemics are not a joke. The change lives and students are not excempt from that.

Assuming we've now managed to put it all behind us - universities will of course engage with what provisions we need to put in place for next year.

But parents/students should also understand that new things can be learnt as a result of the pandemic. For example, the lecture is unnecessary as a form of live teaching for lots of degrees. They are outdated/lazy forms of teaching. In fact, students shouldn't be asking them to come back and should be pushing for more online/innovative solutions. Saying that we just want things how they were is silly. What if we can make things better.

All unis are planning to have f2f activities next year so parents should rest assured. For us it will be very difficult as we might also have to offer everything online for our international crowd who might not want to travel. But I guess parents/students dont care and we'll just get on with it

Yes, this year has been life-changing but perhaps certain things can actually be made better as a result.

This. All of this!

I've found myself thinking a lot about the experiences of my grandparents and parents throughout WW2 - indeed, one of my grandfathers never made it out, and my father grew up without his father.

I may never see my mother alive again, because of this pandemic. My story isn't unique ...

But we can't pretend that this is not happening to us, and we can't be certain that it's all over. It's not.

But I know my students have developed some really important skills, found they could do things they didn't know they could do, and have developed resilience and understanding.

I hope, instead of whinging like their parents, they'll see this as a learning opportunity, and a chance to really dig into themselves and develop character and stamina. The ones I've worked with closely (and yes, you can develop a closeness online!) came to appreciate & enjoy the work we did and the way we HAD to do it.

[quote FHOJfinf18]@user1497207191

I think everyone assumes that the blended learning set up is exactly what students will get

But a) am fed up with the assumption that university staff dont want to be on campus. I hate working from home on my own. Most of my colleagues are the same. We've always had WFH as an option for a couple of days a week. But I've never signed up to working from my fining table in the middle on my living room as my three year old plays and shouts. But there was a pandemic on and we had no choice. Dont assume that we all love being at home - it's lonely, hard work and frankly shit. I would love to go back to normal. I would have spend a year and half on my own. It's not nice. So dont assume we all think it's amazing.

Last year there was a pandemic. WIth social distancing, we simply couldn't give all students f2f teaching. That was not a lie. Blame Boris for being frankly shit at telling the public what is what and making stupid promises. We cant teach 40,000 students 2 meters apart. Literally no way, no chance ....... we would require more space than the whole of London would offer us even if we could commander the whole of the capital city.
If you dont like uncertain amidst a pandemic - go and have a chat with Covi, failing that have a word with Boris. We are trying our best here[/quote]
I know you, as lecturers, are trying your best. My comments are addressed at the Unis who promised "blended learning" whilst at the same time, telling their teaching staff not to return to campus. How does that work?

InfoAir, on reflection the two major problems DD were fairly typical, pandemic or no pandemic. And equally, pandemic or no pandemic, Universities will vary in how they respond. The difference, perhaps between a good University and a poor one.

(Indeed I suspect it is more universal and the pandemic has highlighted the difference between good, well managed, workplaces who are aware of staff and customer needs, and weaker ones.)

The first was an admin issue at the start of the year. DD eventually, with some hesitation, emailed the course Director, who responded immediately demanding that it was sorted out, even though he was probably inundated with similar problems and a lot of other things. The second involved a highly technical course and a lecturer who was on sabbatical (DD would not have picked it if she had known), and a small group of intercalation students who realised they were all out of their depth. One mentioned it to her teaching assistant who gave up her time to take the group through the areas they found most difficult.

Learning in a pandemic involves cooperation. Students need to try to find solutions and when they can't, they need to ask for help. And some staff really have been going the extra mile.

Being a student during a pandemic is crap, but for many it has been better than some of the alternatives: sixth formers, new graduates, those on furlough etc.

I hope students realise the lost of our rights during CV19 was morally wrong and not for the greater good and ensure it never happens again, even if it puts my risk of death as higher. That is the lesson I want them to take from this and that if during another pandemic those who are not students are in charge of universities they fight and fight and litigate against those lock down laws to their last breath (not something I feel the universities have done) and never again put the old before the young.

@IntoAir. Instead of whinging like their parents.... I give up!
I’m walking away from this thread now it’s too depressing Lecturers /universities are obviously not concerned about parents/students opinions . The narrative is already written for next year.
I guess my DD will just have to suck up and shut up about being one of those students who is not as trained as previous years but had the pleasure of paying back exactly the same student loan , the price of being educated in a pandemic but hey let’s look at the silver lining look at your resilience (assuming you are not one of those whose mental health is on the floor like my DD or like my DD’s best friends flatmate who tried to kill themselves in their halls in December ) and those online skills will come in really useful for preparing her for her career... as a physiotherapist!
Let’s see what next year brings shall we

even if it puts my risk of death as higher

That's your choice, but you have no right to choose to put my life at risk.

I teach on a HPC course. My teaching has remained largely live - synchronous sessions taught via MS Teams. For larger groups we have had one member of staff leading the session and another staff member manning the chat box.

I honestly think that these sessions were more interactive than the previous large lecture theatre sessions. We had far more student comments and input- it's much easier to type into a chatbox than put your hand up in a room of 200 students. And yes, our student feedback was excellent.

So I do think that type of online learning will stay. Likewise being accessible to students via MS Teams to save them having to come into campus too.

Online pre-sessional work as prep for F2F will also stay.

All that will be in addition to F2F clinical skills sessions, simulations, and tutorials.

The above is what is meant by blended learning. I'm sorry that some people have had poor experiences, but there are some positives for learning that we have gained from this time.

been in a meeting today at work to discuss this and there is still no change to the current govt advice about guidance regarding social distancing, etc. My biggest cohort is 280 students who we normally fit in a lecture theatre which seats 300. Now that theatre can seat about 60. Lecturers do not have capacity to repeat a physical lecture x5. I already work 50-60 hours a week.

There's also the issue if someone in that lecture theatre tests positive does that mean all students in there have to isolate? Does the lecturer? If the person was on the front row/s then possibly. So then who does the teaching while the lecturer is isolating? It's not like we can get a supply teacher in. What happens if the lecturer catches covid and dies (as has happened to more than one colleague of mine). Though I accept the latter is less likely as people get vaccinated. But the first point is an issue especially if 18-21yos don't have a great uptake on vaccines.

There is still no information from the govt about social distancing for Oct onwards. Maybe it'll be better, maybe it won't. What do we do for room bookings now?