Another Path - part IV

[321zyx]

Apologies if I've done this wrong! I seemed to have filled up the last thread, hopefully the abbreviated title is ok!

I hope it was clear I was talking generally and about the next few years. I have no doubt that the offspring on this thread have the nouse to sort out gap years. Not only are they high achieving, they have knowledgable and engaged parents

That's interesting that international applications were up. Teacher assessed grades and the capacity of universities are pertinent issues though and will be relevant for a few years. I feel sorry for those applying to university this year (not my DC, that's in a few years).

Not everyone considers Medicine applications a two-year process either. We encouraged DS to view it like that and I know the majority on here do too. However, you only need to read some of TSR's medic threads to find stories of devastated DC who have not secured a place in this tough round and their parents are taking the view that if they can't nail it first time, it's not right for them and they will not support a second round application. It's sad reading.

Delurking to add to the gap year debate - my sister's youngest could not have afforded a gap year, because of the difference it makes to benefits when there are two adults and no dependants in the house. Plus costs go up without FSM. Funnily enough said youngest DN is now a teacher and taught a lad in the same position, who had a Cambridge offer last year, lost out due to the algorithm and then got the CAGs he needed, by which time his college had no space and asked him to defer. His family couldn't afford for him to do that. It looked as though he would have to go to his insurance instead but DN got involved (it was DN's old college) and they managed to fit him in. It is a real difficulty for some families and not so much to do with job scarcity or a lack of gumption on the part of the child.

@mumsneedwine

Getting a full time job at 18 that pays enough to fully fund yourself is hard. Especially now. Travelling abroad costs money and is a middle class aspiration. Lots of my students don't own a passport, have no contacts abroad to help them find jobs, and lots of the ski season places only seem to want nice middle class white kids. So they take places at Uni, even if it is their insurance at what some deem a 'lesser' one. They go, work hard and get fantastic jobs in fields they want. Which are not always the ones that MN deems the best. But are the ones that give them satisfaction (we produce a lot of social workers and clinical psychologists).

@MidLifeCrisis007 agree with every word. It is so frustrating to see some schools, lots of a particular type, boasting of their amazingly inflated grades last year. When most tried their best to be fair and honest. This year will worse I think.

Long time lurker here but had to de-lurk to share that I almost veered off the road by stupidly reading a banner I saw last week attached to a secondary school's front railings audaciously proclaiming "Best ever GCSE results in 2020".

It was a one off trip (so not local to me) so annoyingly I will be unlikely to see whether they update it for their 2021 GCSE results in due course !

My ds will be taking a gap year and re-applying to Uni and is already working P/T. There's plenty of minimum wage work which will hopefully broaden his horizons as far as the realities of the ways of the world is concerned without having to travel. To date he's had a fairly (lower) middle class upbringing and even his P/T work isn't available to all comers. It's also seasonal so he's looking at what's available when the season ends and even contacted some agencies who offered him fast training (for free) to be a health care worker.
There's also vacancies at local McDonalds and various pubs/restaurants which are about to re-open. I suspect it'll all be minimum wage but he also plans to look into tutoring/coaching to see if the pay is any better. He hasn't tried the admin staff agencies yet to see about entry level office work but has mentioned it too.

Given that his outgoings will be less than if he was actually starting at Uni in September (which his dad and I would be having to contribute to in part) despite the loss of child benefit, we may be saving on his monthly allowance if he's working and funding himself enough for social life (minimal) and there does seem to be work available.

Agree @Crocidura, and a lot of 18 yr olds really want to avoid a gap year because they're fed up of their families for a whole variety of reasons and are desperate to leave home.
What is so wrong with going to an insurance choice anyway? Surely the worse case scenario is that the student is near the top of the cohort rather than in the middle. Uni staff have to differentiate for different abilities, even at oxbridge.

What is so wrong with going to an insurance choice anyway?

Nothing wrong with going to an insurance, especially if he was switching to eg Bath instead of Bristol, but it did seem a bit unfair on this lad to miss out on a Cambridge education because of his family circumstances.

Given that his outgoings will be less than if he was actually starting at Uni in September (which his dad and I would be having to contribute to in part) despite the loss of child benefit, we may be saving on his monthly allowance if he's working and funding himself enough for social life (minimal) and there does seem to be work available.

This is the situation for many people, but for those whose parents depend on benefits with no other income and would not be contributing to uni, it's a different story unfortunately.

Given the low level that the various benefits are pegged at, surely a DC could earn enough to offset any loss in Child Tax Credit and associated benefits so that a parent was at least neutral on the household income front? I can't see how those numbers add up to mean that a DC staying at home for a year, but earning and contributing, would make or break a decision to defer/ re-apply? I would understand if benefits were generous, but they're not.

For DSis, an additional minimum wage income was not enough to offset the difference in child benefit / tax credits / council tax / housing benefit / child maintenance / FSM.

But much of that will have gone when her DC left for uni in any event, so I'm still a bit puzzled as to how these benefits/ loss of benefits determines whether DC remains in the home for an extra year or goes to uni.

Most if not all of them remain at the same level, you get child benefit and child maintenance until they're 20 if in education. Plus her DS would be fed in term time and would receive the max student support.

(This was a few years ago though, as DN has graduated now and is working.)

You only get child maintenance until 20 if that is a court ordered or an agreed maintenance as CSA stops at 18.

As regards kids on here getting jobs or sorting out gap year opportunities because they have supportive parents, as supportive as I am, DS has always sourced his own employment, intern opportunities and gap year trip this year with absolutely no input from either his Dad or me and each has been presented to us as a fait accompli often without us knowing they were even in the pipeline.

Child benefit only continues until 20 if they are the doing an approved level of course (A levels, IB,Nvq up to level 3 and Scottish highers etc) . So would stop when they went to uni anyway.

Yes I was under the impression that all child related benefits and maintenance stopped once a DC left school (or rather the August 31st after leaving school), that's why I don't really understand the calculations. I can see that Council Tax will increase by 25% etc but I can't see that if a DC is prepared to work that the 'losses' would significantly outweigh the contribution from a minimum wage job, certainly not to the extent that a parent told its DC it had to buzz off to uni immediately on financial grounds. It seems pretty harsh.

@SeasonFinale

You only get child maintenance until 20 if that is a court ordered or an agreed maintenance as CSA stops at 18.

As regards kids on here getting jobs or sorting out gap year opportunities because they have supportive parents, as supportive as I am, DS has always sourced his own employment, intern opportunities and gap year trip this year with absolutely no input from either his Dad or me and each has been presented to us as a fait accompli often without us knowing they were even in the pipeline.

That's great about your DS, but I used the wording "knowledgable and engaged" deliberately, because I wasn't only referring to parents who literally help their DC sort out their gap years.

You may not have been hands on with his gap year arrangements but by virtue of living with you he'll have picked up skills and tips and probably advantages that will help him. Perhaps at some point you may have discussed DC you know having gap years AND/OR various trips others have done AND/OR qualities that help with employability and university AND/OR the usefulness of doing certain internships if wanting to go into certain careers. Doesn't matter how casual these conversations were, they all add up and get registered via osmosis over the years

Gap years and the two year process are paths that have been taken proportionally by more private than state school students. Knowing these things are options comes from the school you're at, your parents, the people you know. The more people you know who do it, the more you're likely to see it as a viable route.

Upbringing is relevant. Re-applying in order to aim for the top 3 or so is not an obvious or easy option for some. A gap year is a luxury not all can afford (using 'afford' here metaphorically and not literally). The point a PP made about some students not wanting to live even part of another year at home is a good one and is relevant to students of all demographics.

The exception however is this last year. I saw a study that showed the majority of students who deferred for 2020 entrance did so out of worry they'd get a substandard education due to Covid.

You are spot on @Stormer.

In addition I know from personal experience that parental influence/ input/ aspirations and school attended can influence future careers far more than the university attended

Totally agree-school,parents,siblings and peers all have a huge influence on future aspirations.

Stormer, I don't disagree. However part of the reason for this board is to share experience.

Standard advice at DC's private school was to aim high, if necessary taking two years. It appears that some state schools, including the one goodbyestranger's DC attended took a similar approach. As a result I would expect that the high achieving DC from these schools did disproportionately well.

It is interesting that the two educators on this thread, Percy, who is/was a state school governor, and Mumsneedwine, advocate a less ambitious approach, in part because of a fear that DC cannot afford it.

I don't know. First I am not convinced that all state pupils in Hampshire are as poor as claimed. (In my London experience parents not paying fees can have a lot more disposable income than their fee paying peers.) But also if parents don't know, and many may not, that their DC are very very bright and really ought to be aiming for the most intellectually challenging courses, it should be for educators to encourage them, rather than to put up barriers and make excuses.

DH's parents wanted him to leave school at 16 because he was offered a 'good' job in a local bank. It was not that they could not have afforded for him to stay on, but this was their idea of respectability and they were unaware of the wider opportunities that higher education could bring. It was one teacher who instead pushed for him to apply to Oxford, from a school who in those days sent relatively few to University and only very occasionally someone to Oxbridge. The EE offer was life changing.

Parents may not understand, but educators should. And their job should be to encourage.

That said there is also a need to be realistic. Competitive courses have been rejecting pupils with A* predictions for a while. Seven years ago DS got three rejections in economics, with the same happening in law, medicine, engineering and more. Plenty ended up reapplying, and went on to thrive at Oxbridge, top London Universities, Durham etc. When people graduate it is the education you received, and the class of degree you got that matter. No one care about the gap year, indeed a year of regular employment, whether stacking shelves, on a building site, in a care home or cafe, will probably be seen as a positive.

This year has been particularly brutal, and so so tough for the DC involved. There is a need to be realistic, but without giving up on ambition.

😂 obviously our school isn't aiming high enough. Apologies for being so crap.
We only have 22 Oxbridge places this year (few now decided to go that were going to reject thanks to the outreach lady who did session last week to reassure them it's not full of pretentious snobby types), 27 Durham (outreach success again - they like the castle), and a load at all the other Russell Group ones. Have 2 going to Royal Academy of Music and 1 of to RADA. However, as a comp, we have lots of students who want to aim elsewhere, not something expensive private or selective grammar schools maybe understand.

It must be nice to be so rich that money isn't a factor but most of my students need to take it into account. In fact most normally paid people do. We have had a v successful few years with offers but if no one wants to apply to Oxbridge next year then that's fine too. They go where they will be happy, not where their parents can boast about.
So I'll continue to give the crap advice, continue to help students achieve their potential and continue to smile wryly at being lectured about how best to help disadvantaged pupils by people who can afford Westminster.

@Engley

Totally agree-school,parents,siblings and peers all have a huge influence on future aspirations.

So true....and unfortunately in ds case the school/peers influence was greater than his parents. It wouldn't have prevented the post interview rejection from Oxford but if he'd taken on board what was being said at home about UCAS choices, he might well be holding an offer now instead of needing to take a gap year and re-apply

It does not then seem to be the centre of deprivation and underachievement you so often talk about.

This is about tactics.

If you have a pupil who is outstanding and who will thrive on a really challenging course, they should be encouraged. Because they will probably be happier there. And then it is about tactics and these courses, like medicine, are hard to get onto.

Whoever is responsible for University entry, and hopefully the school has someone knowledgeable, should then be talking about bursary's (Imperial is particularly generous) and grant giving organisations.

The "as long as they are happy" is patronising. Good schools should recognise where very bright pupils will fit best and encourage them to achieve. Just as DH's teacher did so many years ago.

And please no crap about who can afford what. As a long established teacher you almost certainly earned more than I did. I worked two jobs to help ensure that DC had the opportunity I wanted them for them. I can assure you that unlike deprived Hampshire, no child from our local state secondary has ever got a place at Oxbridge or for medicine. RG is something they boast about and that is recent. For at least two decades 93% of parents were reliant of the school providing FSM, and people collected locally for breakfast clubs for primary schools. Like many London parents, if good suitable state schools had been on offer, or if DC had passed the 11+, my DC would have gone to state schools, but as it was DS got no offers, and DD was offered a school three buses away, but at schools with exceptionally low attainment. I am very sick of people who moan about private schools, when they either bought in good catchments or, as so many people who I know did, rented there long enough to qualify for the school they wanted.

This board is to exchange different experiences. I genuinely think it is sad that applicants who might benefit from the sort of first class education that this country has to offer, are not encouraged to pull out the stops to do so. And this coming from a teacher is very strange. Even stranger is that you regularly advocate a tactical approach for medicine but not economics which, for the more demanding courses, is arguably is more competitive. (Or law, or engineering etc, etc.)

@fairisledog do you care to share more about what happened with your DS?

The reality is that the number of medicine place is fixed based on how many placements can be catered for.

The number of institutions offering economics, law et al has been growing year on year as have the number of places available. With law, of course, the impact kicks in should they then wish to pursue a career in law due to the (lack of) availability of training contract/pupillage places. This also provides a source of debate/outrage when those of us with backgrounds in law explain that without a minimum of an AAA/AAB you will find it incredibly difficult to secure a TC/Pupillage thus causing outcry. If a student wishes to study law as a subject with lower grade entry that is, of course, fine but they should be told the reality of how it would place them in a job market.

They simply cannot expand the number of medicine places available in the same way other subjects can be catered for with a rising demand for places.

In one word @chopc - Medicine