Students full return to campus

[DoNotBringLulu]

This came up on my Facebook feed:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/13/university-campuses-in-england-will-not-reopen-until-mid-may

If this is true, Boris et al have some explaining to do.

I agree it's about mental health here. Most students who could went back last term during lockdown and the cases didn't go up. The remaining few won't make that much difference.

@mumsneedwine There are nearly half a million international students studying in the UK, so not an inconsiderable amount. Although some will be in the country already, can you imagine the uproar if we forced the students to fly into the country because everything is f2f, and they would not be able to complete their degrees otherwise? I know it is hard to accept but the majority of unis will be combined f2f and online next year, I can only see those with negligible international student numbers being able to open fully. Although they may not be banned from entering the country it may not be feasible - e.g. having to pay to quarantine for 2 weeks in a hotel (and therefore still missing f2f teaching in that time) or be unable to return to their home country at the end of term, with no prospect of knowing when they will be able to return. They are just as entitled to an education at a university they are paying a considerable amount for too.

I'm not saying that teaching in the summer shouldn't be done or is impossible, but some posters seem to throw it out as a solution but it is more complex than e.g. teaching in schools over the summer (where teachers and students are in fairly near proximity to the school). Many accommodation contracts do not allow students to be there in the summer - everything needs to be joined up to allow summer teaching. Then you get into a situation where the university offers teaching but still some students can't attend due to accommodation or needing to work during the summer to earn money for the rest of their studies. Then that's unfair on those students and possibly benefits those whose parents can afford it. Remember student loans are only meant to live on for 40ish weeks a year, assuming students are at home over summer and parents are supporting them/student working to support themselves

@CupcakesK I do see it's tricky but I know Nottingham managed to get their foreign students back in September and quarantined them for 2 weeks. V few cases at Unis last term and virtually everyone went back.
Not sure why we are not prioritising the young people of this country who have had a totally rubbish year. And if you can't get here you can defer a year at no charge ? Or is it about money ?
Most rental contracts for first years start on 1st July for their 2nd year houses so the vast majority will have accommodation all summer.
If next year is not mainly f2f I think there will be legal action taken by many students, rumblings already from SUs about this. The government can no longer be used as an excuse as roadmap says all allowed back from May 12th. Students signed contracts for their education and these now need to be honoured. Just because some students can't get here for f2f does not mean the majority need to suffer any longer.
Or we are going to destroy the mental health and prospects of these young people who have given up so much to protect the older generation.

[quote CupcakesK]@mumsneedwine There are nearly half a million international students studying in the UK, so not an inconsiderable amount. Although some will be in the country already, can you imagine the uproar if we forced the students to fly into the country because everything is f2f, and they would not be able to complete their degrees otherwise? I know it is hard to accept but the majority of unis will be combined f2f and online next year, I can only see those with negligible international student numbers being able to open fully. Although they may not be banned from entering the country it may not be feasible - e.g. having to pay to quarantine for 2 weeks in a hotel (and therefore still missing f2f teaching in that time) or be unable to return to their home country at the end of term, with no prospect of knowing when they will be able to return. They are just as entitled to an education at a university they are paying a considerable amount for too.

I'm not saying that teaching in the summer shouldn't be done or is impossible, but some posters seem to throw it out as a solution but it is more complex than e.g. teaching in schools over the summer (where teachers and students are in fairly near proximity to the school). Many accommodation contracts do not allow students to be there in the summer - everything needs to be joined up to allow summer teaching. Then you get into a situation where the university offers teaching but still some students can't attend due to accommodation or needing to work during the summer to earn money for the rest of their studies. Then that's unfair on those students and possibly benefits those whose parents can afford it. Remember student loans are only meant to live on for 40ish weeks a year, assuming students are at home over summer and parents are supporting them/student working to support themselves[/quote]
At dd uni many of the internationals stayed! It’s only the brits who aren’t back.

Seems to be the case in many London unis too. I know friends who work at various London unis who have been very worried about their welfare.

We need proper stats and analysis here. The plan for students seems to be based on very little actual evidence or data.

@CupcakesK I do see it's tricky but I know Nottingham managed to get their foreign students back in September and quarantined them for 2 weeks. V few cases at Unis last term and virtually everyone went back.
Not sure why we are not prioritising the young people of this country who have had a totally rubbish year. And if you can't get here you can defer a year at no charge ? Or is it about money ?
Most rental contracts for first years start on 1st July for their 2nd year houses so the vast majority will have accommodation all summer.
If next year is not mainly f2f I think there will be legal action taken by many students, rumblings already from SUs about this. The government can no longer be used as an excuse as roadmap says all allowed back from May 12th. Students signed contracts for their education and these now need to be honoured. Just because some students can't get here for f2f does not mean the majority need to suffer any longer.
Or we are going to destroy the mental health and prospects of these young people who have given up so much to protect the older generation.

Could students have labs during the exam period? DS has been doing modules in series, so has small exams every few weeks instead of two exam periods.
He has had 3 labs this year, with 4 other students. He could catch up on labs over the 4 week (now defunct) exam period, without eating into lecturer's Summer research time.
He's still not back in halls, but his Far Eastern flatmates have been in halls since November.

No idea how I did that twice 😳. DD had a plan to organise a festival every day on campus. Because that's allowed. Can have 20,000 people at Reading in September all squashed into a field.
Or I saw an idea from Oxford students to turn the Uni into a human zoo as they're open and so students could return (a lot of them have been refused).
There is no evidence behind any of this, it's all bonkers. Was heartened to read Bristol Uni tweets this morning as they sound pretty fed up at not being allowed back and sounding like planning to be in Sept.

I want everything to be f2f as much as possible too, but think I'm being realistic about the situation and challenges to this.

Last September - no COVID variants were circulating, so allowing students to return to the country was less risky as they had the same COVID we had. There was also still the provision that if they couldn't return, everything would be available online. We're talking about taking away that safety net for next year and as it is highly likely we will end up with a surge in cases at some point and the disruption caused by having to stop everything mid-semester because the government decides to is possibly worse than allowing students to return but have blended teaching and less f2f than in normal circumstances.

There are consequences to deferring a year of study e.g. some professional courses have time limitations to complete studies, visa requirements for international students, financial implications of not getting a student loan for a year. Many unis will not exclude their international students like this, and risk reputational damage worldwide, as they rely on them to subsidise the cost of home students.

I would absolutely welcome a legal challenge if either the government doesn't change its stance or individual unis are not doing all they can. However universities are massive complex operations, of which undergraduate teaching to home students is just one part. I can completely see how students view their lack of f2f teaching and the hit it's had on them and their mental health. There are just so many more factors to consider, that demanding full f2f next semester is not feasible. I will add, again, I want to see as much f2f as possible, but university next year is not going to be back to normal and students should be prepared for that.

Are Universities not vaccinating whole campuses now?

Do you not read newspapers or listen to news broadcasts on radio or television? Universities have been hugely involved in developing vaccines (not just Oxford ...) but - you know - (well, eny fule kno) supplies of vaccine are NOT in universities' gift.

Good lord the misplaced anger on this thread.

Could students have labs during the exam period?

So when would you like us to mark exams? We're losing staff, and most academic teach with very little admin support.

Parents and students have every right to be VERY pissed off.

Many of us have been financially clobbered by COVID
and seen our children paying for courses they are not getting
and we are paying for accommodation they cannot use
out of money we do not have

Individual lecturers are not to blame
but anybody on a salary who has saved money during COVID
CANNOT
tell me not to complain and say things have been tickety boo for students.

NOBODY should be defending the current system
because it stinks.

Social distancing will be in place for a while yet. This will affect capacity i labs and lecture theatres. Most countries are behind us on vaccinations. There is always the possibility of new variants, which can bypass current vaccines.

None knows what the world will look like in September. We have some reasons for hope, but we can be sure that it will be a new normal rather than a return to the old normal.

DDs University has done really well and delivered a good education. I have no doubt that both University authorities and the government are doing their best in yhe face of unknowns. If anyoneanything is to blame it has to be the virus.

Nothing's been ticketty boo for anyone, I think that's pretty clear!

And I certainly wouldn't defend the current system, if what you mean is the way degrees are funded - you won't find many academics who do! In terms of what we've done, I think the issues are

1. a government who have refused to engage or consider students and universities until forced to, at every stage, leaving it to VCs to make the decisions so
2. VCs have made decisions that aren't the ones staff or students would like them to make, and as much as I think VCs are overpaid and detached from reality, they do have to think about what will keep the institution solvent (and I'm well aware that that might one day include 'close the department I work in')

So why is it possible for year 13 to all be back in classrooms, no social distancing, but in 5 month time they can't be in classrooms. This is what I'm struggling with. They are all 18 year olds so what changes magically over the summer ?

@CupcakesK if Uni will not be the same then they need to be honest and let the students know now. So they can decide whether to stay or not, as many do not feel it's worth it for another year of on line.
Just did a poll of my year 13s and 3/4 will defer or not go at all if it's on line. All have firmed their offers.
Honesty towards the students would be nice.

@mumsneedwine

So why is it possible for year 13 to all be back in classrooms, no social distancing, but in 5 month time they can't be in classrooms. This is what I'm struggling with. They are all 18 year olds so what changes magically over the summer ?

THIS

Year 13 cannot vote
but their parents might vote Tory

Undergrads can vote
and are unlikely to vote Tory

So the Tory government gives less than two &&& about them
the elections are on may 6th
USE THEM

I agree with Listening. Anyone on a salary throughout including nurses and teachers and uinversity staff (other than those at risk of job losses) should try to put themselves in the shoes of a parent forking out £7000 in rent with no refunds and the situation of many parents with no right to furlough money or self employment money and yet businesses and life's work destroyed by the state's legislative measures (not by covid itself).

Listening, is Stamer really advocating anything different?

If anything I think Labour would have listened more to the Unions and teachers and kept secondary schools closed.

I can’t do a link on this device, but look on the UCU site (HE union) and see their statement. They do not want their members to return to work or institutions to open.

How about you show your offspring (as I’ll show mine) this union’s attitude to students.

Teachers never wanted schools closed 😒. They wanted them safer. Like they are now. That was all. Unions never wanted schools closed, they wanted them safer. Like they are now. It was v simple to do and it seems to be working. Masks work.
And @Xenia I do agree. As a teacher I've been lucky as I have a job still. Many of my friends don't. This whole year has been rubbish for people in different ways but financially it has hit some more than others.

Many key workers are also funding rent for student DC’s as are those on reduced furlough or self employment government payments. It’s difficult for everyone.

If the government had listened and made schools and Uni safer perhaps f2f teaching could have continued. Make sure you remember this at election time. It’s unbelievable how each of this governments departments have messed up big time.

@Needmoresleep

Listening, is Stamer really advocating anything different?

If anything I think Labour would have listened more to the Unions and teachers and kept secondary schools closed.

I have no idea what Labour think at the moment.

Many teachers and lecturers feel unrepresented by their unions (because engagement in decision making is so limited)

I do not care which party young people vote for - after all its local elections
but they NEED to get into the habit of voting

I also have no idea what Labour is advocating.

It is quite odd. I also agree about the Unions. University teachers need a sensible, constructive and critical voice, but bas far as I can see, they are not providing it.

Are Universities not vaccinating whole campuses now?
WHY?

Really?? Why do you think? We aren't the nhs and we don't have secret stashes of vaccines....

Jo Grady, General Secretary of the UCU union, on April 12:

”UCU has been calling for English universities to stay online until the start of the next academic year... they have belatedly listened to our demands...”

And goes on to say that they do not want students returning at all this year for health & safety and so that staff can prepare for next year