Widening Participation/Contextual Admissions

[SometimesRavenSometimesParrot]

Hi all. I’ve seen quite a lot of posts lately where people seem a bit confused about different widening participation initiatives and contextual admissions, either how they work, why they work or why they’re even done... and some people asking questions about them and not getting anything resembling an accurate response.

I’ve worked in a WP team for seven years now (with a couple of short stints in admissions), so since I have often had excellent advice from Mumsnet and my questions answered, I thought I’d offer myself up to answer anything in this area someone might want to know.

I be name changed so I can be a bit more honest and I know there are several other posters who work or research in this area who might want to chip in!

Standard disclaimer of every uni works slightly different, so answers will be broad ranging - feel free to PM me if you’ve got a specific q!

Regarding grad jobs - the data that you're quoting @PresentingPercy is a snapshot a year after graduation. Don't forget graduates will be working for 40+ years. Just because someone isn't in a grad role 12 months after they graduate doesn't mean that they won't be two or five or ten years later. They'll always have the degree.

And in case anyone was worried their offspring was going to have their rightful uni place offered to someone whose parent shop at Aldi, cheer up - Waitrose and Sainsbury's shopping offspring still get the overwhelming majority of uni places:

@PresentingPercy you’ve literally said x happens, stated as a fact. Then asked for evidence to back up your own statement.

If you’d like data on who progresses to HE, it’s all publicly available on UCAS, or Wonkhe have brilliant summary reports.

I’m not going to carry on this discussion because you seem to want an argument, but for any other posters, I am still happy to answer any questions, either here or on PM :)

[quote Chilldonaldchill]@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot, the criteria for contextual offers, thank you.
@PresentingPercy they're not all good. These are schools I wouldn't have wanted to send my children to and I would not class them as good. But clearly the schools eligible for contextual offers at these particular med schools (they all meet Bristol's criteria but not other medical schools) have far more issues than the ones I know about.[/quote]
Hi @Chilldonaldchill the Exeter contextual offer info is here www.exeter.ac.uk/undergraduate/entryrequirements/contextual/

The lack of students going into grad level jobs is a mixture of things - one, there just aren’t enough grad level jobs and two, it’s a misleading statistic because it doesn’t allow for nuance. My friend got married a month after uni, pregnant straight away and has been a stay at home mum since. So she’s not in a grad job, but it’s a personal choice and not a negative. Plus, i think some of the issues with students not getting jobs are a whole different issue that goes back to school!

This is also a really nuanced issue.
The way a 'graduate' job is defined is a little strange and outdated. It also doesn't account for sector differences. So a marketing assistant isn't coded as a graduate job BUT will often ask for a degree ( especially if the role is at a university) .
Another issue is how the figures are gathered. Up until recently employment figures were gathered 6 months after graduation now it's 15 months. You are also partly relying on graduates to complete the Graduate Outcomes Survey which has it's problems!

They also don't take into account 'graduate voice' . Not everyone goes to university to get a high paying graduate job. Someone might be working in a job that isn't coded as a graduate role but be really happy and still found their university education beneficial. But there is no way of recording that.

We have a lot of interesting topics on this thread so thanks to everyone for that. I am not surprised that for some universities London state schools are not deprived enough. Bair and others threw huge mount of London at London schools and Teach First best graduates often want to work in London but not in my native Newcastle and people doing mentoring and all those MPs at Westminster and the City of London are all close by to London which is not the case with my mother's Sunderland where is you have a salary as "high" as that of a nurse or teacher you will be a higher earner.

Bristol ( as well as the being in care and free meals tests) looks at the 40% worst schools for A level results and I am sure there are one or two of those in London. The fact contextual rules are so hard to find and differ between universities does not help people.

Children of professionals who follow their parents (my uncle and father were doctors and my sibling also is - even the same specialism as my NHS consultant father and yet that is just because of interset - no overlap in terms of help as the NHS does not work like that. Same with me and my 2 lawyer daughters and soon to be (if they pass) 2 lawyer sons - people often just choose what their parents do. My older son is the shining social mobility outlier who has moved "down" after his degree so in a sense, others can move up - postman for 3 years and now drives a food delivery van, might as well have left school at 14 and his driving test is his only useful qualification but he is happy - his choice.

On being black where I live most people are not white in this bit of London and my son was the only white boy in his private school class at one point. For some firms the boarding school Oxbridge educated Nigerian prince type person with the posh accent can be gold dust for all those university trips, brochures, websites. My son was looking at law firm websites last year and three had no one like him on the trainee page - a white male. Lots of non whites and lots of women. He actually said does that mean they don't want me? May be the answer is they do not. He is the wrong sex, the wrong colour and the wrong class.

30 applicants to medicine from my DC's school this year - one is a child of a doctor.
At least 10 children of doctors not going anywhere near medicine!

I’m aware we all have anecdotes and suspicions. What we don’t have is facts. What percentage each year of successful applicants are related to medics? Is this not an advantage?

Applications is one thing, success is another.

@PresentingPercy

Applications is one thing, success is another.

Applications and enrolments largely mirror one another.

Empressofthemundane
What is the legal requirement under pinning all this?
To charge the full fee amount universities are required to have an access and participation plan (APP) detailing their widening participation work, which they register with the Office for Students, our regulatory body

Do they have a target they have to reach, or a clear definition of what counts as disadvantaged, or has the government left universities to work that out for themselves?

Do they have a target they have to reach, or a clear definition of what counts as disadvantaged, or has the government left universities to work that out for themselves?

The OfS have a clear definition of what constitutes an underrepresented group and there are national key performance indicators but Access and Participation plans will differ depending on the particular demographics of individual universities.

One group might be under represented at my university but not at the university across the road so we need different plans in place.

@Xenia

We have a lot of interesting topics on this thread so thanks to everyone for that. I am not surprised that for some universities London state schools are not deprived enough. Bair and others threw huge mount of London at London schools and Teach First best graduates often want to work in London but not in my native Newcastle and people doing mentoring and all those MPs at Westminster and the City of London are all close by to London which is not the case with my mother's Sunderland where is you have a salary as "high" as that of a nurse or teacher you will be a higher earner.

Bristol ( as well as the being in care and free meals tests) looks at the 40% worst schools for A level results and I am sure there are one or two of those in London. The fact contextual rules are so hard to find and differ between universities does not help people.

Children of professionals who follow their parents (my uncle and father were doctors and my sibling also is - even the same specialism as my NHS consultant father and yet that is just because of interset - no overlap in terms of help as the NHS does not work like that. Same with me and my 2 lawyer daughters and soon to be (if they pass) 2 lawyer sons - people often just choose what their parents do. My older son is the shining social mobility outlier who has moved "down" after his degree so in a sense, others can move up - postman for 3 years and now drives a food delivery van, might as well have left school at 14 and his driving test is his only useful qualification but he is happy - his choice.

On being black where I live most people are not white in this bit of London and my son was the only white boy in his private school class at one point. For some firms the boarding school Oxbridge educated Nigerian prince type person with the posh accent can be gold dust for all those university trips, brochures, websites. My son was looking at law firm websites last year and three had no one like him on the trainee page - a white male. Lots of non whites and lots of women. He actually said does that mean they don't want me? May be the answer is they do not. He is the wrong sex, the wrong colour and the wrong class.

Hi @Xenia just to clarify my earlier comment I wasn’t suggesting that medical students with medical parents get preferential treatment or anything like that. I’m well aware the NHS and medical admissions don’t work like that.

I was referring to the more subjective benefits they might have - like parents with knowledge of how medical school works to answer questions, parents who promote it as an option, who don’t discourage competitive applications. Even things like discussions of medical ethics or vaccine take up or whatever - they’re more likely to be common in a professional household, than in a student from a disadvantaged area. And just the exposure to that gives a benefit in terms of confidence and a feeling of belonging.

As for your son - there are more white, middle class men in law than ethnic minorities and women. I’m sure he’s seen that during placements etc. Promotion of a diverse workforce on a website goes back to that role model idea. I’m sure if your son has the appropriate grade and experience profile he’ll get a great place for him.

@DelBocaVista

The lack of students going into grad level jobs is a mixture of things - one, there just aren’t enough grad level jobs and two, it’s a misleading statistic because it doesn’t allow for nuance. My friend got married a month after uni, pregnant straight away and has been a stay at home mum since. So she’s not in a grad job, but it’s a personal choice and not a negative. Plus, i think some of the issues with students not getting jobs are a whole different issue that goes back to school!

This is also a really nuanced issue.
The way a 'graduate' job is defined is a little strange and outdated. It also doesn't account for sector differences. So a marketing assistant isn't coded as a graduate job BUT will often ask for a degree ( especially if the role is at a university) .
Another issue is how the figures are gathered. Up until recently employment figures were gathered 6 months after graduation now it's 15 months. You are also partly relying on graduates to complete the Graduate Outcomes Survey which has it's problems!

They also don't take into account 'graduate voice' . Not everyone goes to university to get a high paying graduate job. Someone might be working in a job that isn't coded as a graduate role but be really happy and still found their university education beneficial. But there is no way of recording that.

Added to which how the data is gathered - the uni I attended outsourced their graduate follow up calls to a call centre and when you googled the number it said it was a PPI call! So most of us ignored it and the uni never got the data on our graduate progression

@PresentingPercy are you alright? What does being black have to do with anything?

@Xenia yes you are certainly right Xenia, I have never seen a white male trainee lawyer....

Oh wait!

They use there only diverse employees for good optics on their websites. You cannot genuinely believe he is disadvantaged because of his race or sex.

Added to which how the data is gathered - the uni I attended outsourced their graduate follow up calls to a call centre and when you googled the number it said it was a PPI call! So most of us ignored it and the uni never got the data on our graduate progression

This is an issue - The Graduate Outcome Survey is now completely outsourced which creates a lot of issues!

@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot thank you so much. I don't know why I couldn't find that!

Medics predominantly come from professional backgrounds. I guess this is partly due to the high A level tariff for medicine and historically opportunities for work experience (though this has changed).

I would think WP has a big role to play on broadening the backgrounds of medics with appropriate contexualisation

I think there will be some resistance from private schools/grammars as some medicine places go elsewhere.

I don't have data on medical parents having medical children but I believe it used to be more common.
When I was at medical school I didn't know anyone with a doctor as a parent but I have met several "dynasties" over my years in the profession.
I know about 50 doctors with teenage children/children in their early 20s and only know two with children following in a parent's footsteps (one has one out of two children, the other has three out of three).
Possibly more usefully I have taught about 150 junior doctors in the most popular Foundation school in England over the last few years and I can think of two who had a medical parent.
I honestly think medical parents make medicine off-putting rather than attractive.
I am convinced the data would concur with this but it would be a fascinating study. I'm sure someone must have done it though.

@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot, thanks so much for taking the time to post here (and thanks also for your pm, I really appreciate it). I decided to stick my head above the parapet and post some very personal information in the hope it could motivate the carers and adopters of other care-experienced young people to seek more information about higher education admissions.

Can I clarify, please, as there is some argument on the AdoptionUK website about whether adopted children qualify as ‘care leavers’ for university admissions purposes?

I don't know about adopted children so someone else will need to answer. I suspect if you are adopted as a baby at birth and brought up in a wealthy or middle class home you are treated like anyone else from that group although it would be better to be nuanced and say if you were adopted aged 14 from a dreadful home or care and then turned your life around and did well at school that could be relevant to giving you a chance over someone else.

On whether the baker's son is likely to be come a baker etc even if you go back to the 1300s we will probably see a pattern that some not all children follow their parents into their career or way of life, It was coal miners in my family and also in another branch mariner. It will be a complex issue because a parent might have put a word in for you at the local pit when you were 12 and for doctors or lawyers today the parent might well have talked about medicine or law at home for 18 years I doubt that necessarily helps you in at the UCAS application stage any more than anyone who happens to have a helpful parent at home and good teachers at school giving a few pointers.

On whether the baker's son is likely to be come a baker etc even if you go back to the 1300s we will probably see a pattern that some not all children follow their parents into their career or way of life, It was coal miners in my family and also in another branch mariner. It will be a complex issue because a parent might have put a word in for you at the local pit when you were 12 and for doctors or lawyers today the parent might well have talked about medicine or law at home for 18 years I doubt that necessarily helps you in at the UCAS application stage any more than anyone who happens to have a helpful parent at home and good teachers at school giving a few pointers.

Your parents occupation and education are HUGE influences on career related decisions as well as predicted and actual success. For example,

Young people tend to refer to career options that were popular when their parents were making career related decisions

Parents tend to want children to follow a similar educational pathway to theirs

Young people with parents in professional occupations have access to a wider selection of work experience in professional pathways and are happy to use those connections as it's seen as the 'done thing'.

Young people from working class backgrounds feel less comfortable using family/friend connections.

[quote SmaugMum]@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot, thanks so much for taking the time to post here (and thanks also for your pm, I really appreciate it). I decided to stick my head above the parapet and post some very personal information in the hope it could motivate the carers and adopters of other care-experienced young people to seek more information about higher education admissions.

Can I clarify, please, as there is some argument on the AdoptionUK website about whether adopted children qualify as ‘care leavers’ for university admissions purposes?[/quote]
It varies a little bit by HE provider, but the UCAS form asks if you’ve ever been in care with no time specific limit, so they can declare it there.

This flags you as care experienced for the university, but there may be an additional criteria to receive a contextual offer. It doesn’t help that the definition varies in England, Scotland, NI and Wales, which is why there is some variability across institutions. The vast majority of institutions should have their care experienced student policy publicly available though.

@Xenia even children who was removed from their birth families young and adopted young can have serious issues for a long time afterwards (attachment issues, FAS etc) so they’re absolutely as deserving of support as a student who was removed from their home at 14.

@DelBocaVista is absolutely spot on!