Widening Participation/Contextual Admissions

[SometimesRavenSometimesParrot]

Hi all. I’ve seen quite a lot of posts lately where people seem a bit confused about different widening participation initiatives and contextual admissions, either how they work, why they work or why they’re even done... and some people asking questions about them and not getting anything resembling an accurate response.

I’ve worked in a WP team for seven years now (with a couple of short stints in admissions), so since I have often had excellent advice from Mumsnet and my questions answered, I thought I’d offer myself up to answer anything in this area someone might want to know.

I be name changed so I can be a bit more honest and I know there are several other posters who work or research in this area who might want to chip in!

Standard disclaimer of every uni works slightly different, so answers will be broad ranging - feel free to PM me if you’ve got a specific q!

@SmaugMum @Antiqueanniesmagiclanternshow of course!

The interesting issue is if my parents ( state grammar schools from areas of NE England where most people were badly off so in a sense the "pure" grammar system as intended) had better chances - that the 1940s grammar school widening of participation worked better because it chose people at 11+ rather than at 18+ when in some cases of potential it is too late than today trying to widen at 18 which may result in those getting places being worse at the subject than those not part of WP. That may be wrong.

May be it is like at Harvard. Just about any of those in the running could do well on the courses so the 99 rejected who meet the criteria and the 1 who succeeds could all have done as well there whereas the 1000 others per place who might like to go but pass hardly any exams and have a low IQ / ability clearly would not.

So we might have 100 students getting Bs or higher, half from sink schools and half from very selective state grammars or very selective fee paying schools. Should we give the 100 places to those from the sink schools and reject all the others even with higher grades or give half the places to each group or do it purely on A level results and give it all to those with the highest grades?

@Xenia

The interesting issue is if my parents ( state grammar schools from areas of NE England where most people were badly off so in a sense the "pure" grammar system as intended) had better chances - that the 1940s grammar school widening of participation worked better because it chose people at 11+ rather than at 18+ when in some cases of potential it is too late than today trying to widen at 18 which may result in those getting places being worse at the subject than those not part of WP. That may be wrong.

May be it is like at Harvard. Just about any of those in the running could do well on the courses so the 99 rejected who meet the criteria and the 1 who succeeds could all have done as well there whereas the 1000 others per place who might like to go but pass hardly any exams and have a low IQ / ability clearly would not.

So we might have 100 students getting Bs or higher, half from sink schools and half from very selective state grammars or very selective fee paying schools. Should we give the 100 places to those from the sink schools and reject all the others even with higher grades or give half the places to each group or do it purely on A level results and give it all to those with the highest grades?

@Xenia you’re making quite a few points there which miss the nuance I think.

Grammar schools can improve chances for some students - but equally screw over the students who bloom later, or who have a bad day on the exam. It would be better if all state provided education was just of a better quality, with excellent experience teachers and a culture of aspiration present everywhere, not just in Grammars.

I’m not quite sure what you mean about Harvard as I don’t have an experience of the American market, but unis don’t give contextual offers, or offers generally, if they don’t think the student will manage. You don’t get a guaranteed offer just because you’re disadvantaged.

If there are 100 places, universities will make offers to the students they think meet the academic requirements of the courses and would be a good fit - whether those offers are the published ones or contextual.

The point (simplified) of contextual offers is getting a Grade A at Eton, where’s there’s academic selection, loads of support, fantastic staff and a culture of aspiration and support is brilliant.
But a student at a requires improvement comp who’s achieved a Grade B despite lack of school and parental encouragement and support/high teacher changeover/lack of study space/caring responsibilities etc, is just as (or more so IMO) brilliant. So doing it on pure A Level grades isn’t a good option.

..although most places are awarded on pure A level grades so the nation presumably DOES think selecting mostly on the basis of pure A level grades is fairest and best.

@Xenia

..although most places are awarded on pure A level grades so the nation presumably DOES think selecting mostly on the basis of pure A level grades is fairest and best.

The B grade sink school kid is still being selected on A levels I don't think there's any talk of letting anyone in regardless of their A level grade.

@Xenia

..although most places are awarded on pure A level grades so the nation presumably DOES think selecting mostly on the basis of pure A level grades is fairest and best.

This entire thread is talking about contextual admissions, where students aren’t admitting on pure A Levels. They’re admitted on their A Level, with their context taken into account.

Not to mention all the courses which include interviews and admissions tests, which are also occasions on which students aren’t admitted purely on A Levels.

@Xenia

..although most places are awarded on pure A level grades so the nation presumably DOES think selecting mostly on the basis of pure A level grades is fairest and best.

I can’t speak for the entire nation, but it’s obvious to me that it isn’t fairest and best to admit on the basis of pure A-level results. My child could be at Eton and also have outside tutors, plus be booked in for pre-exam crammed. Or my child could be living in an over-crowded home with no access to technology, plus have an after-school and weekend job in order to contribute to the household finances. The Eton child and the overcrowded child could both be A scholars, but, honestly, which of the two would you admire most for their efforts and achievements? Honestly, I think you are being somewhat obtuse in your arguments.

I’ll be frank, I have some skin in the game in that my eldest DD is blind, is care-experienced and is currently a FSM student (due to COVID) but she is bright and has earned herself a place at a super-selective grammar school. EVERYTHING is harder for my DD, but she is motivated enough to earn herself a place at a decent university. Now, would I give my DD a place over someone who has no disabilities and who has had every advantage in life, including the right and best education, supplementary tutors, and potentially moving to be in the right catchments for the most desirable schools? Too fucking right I would! It never ceases to amaze me how those who have had all the advantages in life begrudge those who haven’t a bit of a leg-up, as if their entitled birthrights are being robbed by the wrong sorts of people.

True, @SmaugMum. I've followed a few discussions along these lines on MN, and there's always an element claiming that the prestige of elite institutions will be diluted by the admission of the wrong type of bright student, who will probably flounder anyway because they haven't had the right specialised tuition to prepare them, so it's really not fair on them to let them think they're as good as the naice boys and girls.

SmaugMum that is very interesting and gets to the heart of the whole issue. On some entrance systems your daughter being at a grammar school (but blind and with those other disadvantages) might find she doesn't get a contextual offer but my son's university friend who I discovered lives near us in a £3m !!!! house did because of the school attended. What a weird world. Another friend of my son's went to a leading boarding school and stayed one week - he hated it and left and went to a local comp where my cleaner's son who went on to London Met went to . My other son has a friend who is in my view from a working class family had a full scholarship to a different leading boarding school - that boy will be disadvantaged. He is really clever and just failed I believe to get a civil service job probably because he is white, male and went to that school - none of those are things he chose. he has been home applying for jobs since they finished their degrees last summer.

I suppose the best thing we can tell our children is what my mother said - life isn't fair, so just get on with it, work hard and do the best you can. I am glad I am not in charge of university admissions nor job admissions for graduates at a company. I have a friend who recruited male ex cons, young lads, to his factory. It worked well and he gave them a chance (everyone is white in that bit of the countryside so it was not race issue but it was certainly brave of him and he had a fair bit more hassle - I remember him having to rush off to stop a fight between two of them on the factory floor).

@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot can I ask a very specific question please?
I have got myself involved in a couple of our local schools helping with potential medical school applicants - having discovered what's on offer at the local indies I am trying to level the playing field somewhat.
I have gone through all the medical schools to try and find their WP criteria. Many are very clear on their websites - thank you Bristol and Birmingham! (and some others).
I cannot for the life of me find Exeter's policy (though I know it has an active and effective WP policy which is why I want to find it). Any idea where I can find it?
For other posters concerned about WP fairness - the thing I have been most shocked about in this process is actually how difficult it is to get in on WP criteria. The London boroughs I am looking at have zero polar quintile 1 areas, almost no quintile 2. They have no schools meeting the "below average attainment 8" criteria. For many med schools students have to meet 3 of various criteria eg FSM, job seekers... Care leavers are the ones who meet criteria nearly everywhere which is obviously completely appropriate.
From a very London /South East perspective I was actually shocked that some of my local areas and schools wouldn't meet criteria but it just shows how much those who do meet the criteria have overcome.
Thanks @SometimesRavenSometimesParrot if you can help re Exeter!

@Xenia

SmaugMum that is very interesting and gets to the heart of the whole issue. On some entrance systems your daughter being at a grammar school (but blind and with those other disadvantages) might find she doesn't get a contextual offer but my son's university friend who I discovered lives near us in a £3m !!!! house did because of the school attended. What a weird world. Another friend of my son's went to a leading boarding school and stayed one week - he hated it and left and went to a local comp where my cleaner's son who went on to London Met went to . My other son has a friend who is in my view from a working class family had a full scholarship to a different leading boarding school - that boy will be disadvantaged. He is really clever and just failed I believe to get a civil service job probably because he is white, male and went to that school - none of those are things he chose. he has been home applying for jobs since they finished their degrees last summer.

I suppose the best thing we can tell our children is what my mother said - life isn't fair, so just get on with it, work hard and do the best you can. I am glad I am not in charge of university admissions nor job admissions for graduates at a company. I have a friend who recruited male ex cons, young lads, to his factory. It worked well and he gave them a chance (everyone is white in that bit of the countryside so it was not race issue but it was certainly brave of him and he had a fair bit more hassle - I remember him having to rush off to stop a fight between two of them on the factory floor).

As a care experienced student, @SmaugMum’s daughter would qualify for contextual support regardless of school or postcode. So there is flexibility when appropriate.

As for the examples you’ve given, I’ve said above, no data measure is perfectly accurate. There are always anomalies - this is the case for any kind of data! But while a small percentage of students may be inappropriately affected (positively or negatively) by these measures, it doesn’t mean that they’re not still very worthwhile.

A family with no mortgage, SAHM and low income father because of family money would be eligible for FSM when they can very much afford to pay. They’ll get an unneeded benefit, but it doesn’t mean we should scrap FSM. This isn’t a perfect analogy obvious but hopefully you take my point.

[quote Chilldonaldchill]@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot can I ask a very specific question please?
I have got myself involved in a couple of our local schools helping with potential medical school applicants - having discovered what's on offer at the local indies I am trying to level the playing field somewhat.
I have gone through all the medical schools to try and find their WP criteria. Many are very clear on their websites - thank you Bristol and Birmingham! (and some others).
I cannot for the life of me find Exeter's policy (though I know it has an active and effective WP policy which is why I want to find it). Any idea where I can find it?
For other posters concerned about WP fairness - the thing I have been most shocked about in this process is actually how difficult it is to get in on WP criteria. The London boroughs I am looking at have zero polar quintile 1 areas, almost no quintile 2. They have no schools meeting the "below average attainment 8" criteria. For many med schools students have to meet 3 of various criteria eg FSM, job seekers... Care leavers are the ones who meet criteria nearly everywhere which is obviously completely appropriate.
From a very London /South East perspective I was actually shocked that some of my local areas and schools wouldn't meet criteria but it just shows how much those who do meet the criteria have overcome.
Thanks @SometimesRavenSometimesParrot if you can help re Exeter![/quote]
Are you looking for the criteria for contextual offers, or to get on WP programmes the medical school runs for school students?

Well if all schools are great in London - I’m all for that - everywhere. No poor schools would suit everyone better.

I do think there is a need to re-evaluate a university education. Looking at the latest grad prospects from our very best universities sees 15-20% of students not getting grad level jobs. The nation and their parents have (at this point) paid for their degrees. There needs to be a much more rigorous evaluation of what universities offer value for money for students and the nation. We have too many of them.

I do sometimes wonder - we have a long tradition of social mobility in this country but it’s stalled. Yet we have more university places. My parents went to grammar schools. So did DH and me. Millions of people came from working class roots but via education, they are not working class any more. Therefore how do we truly know who hadn’t got MC help with tutoring? Which dc don’t have study space? A post code doesn’t tell you this. Neither does it tell you that DC who live there might actually not be very bright. Looking at Sats results, do we really think the deprived DC are exactly the same in number as the MC kids? I don’t see that in any other government analysis.

The universities have widened the net so much that lots of dc are barely disadvantaged at all. The ones who are truly disadvantaged are the ones who leave school at 16. Their options in life will be limited. That said, all dc should be encouraged to aim high but I do not believe that MC children are exactly the same in number as disadvantaged DC when looking at A level results (say A-C grades). What stats show this?

@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot, the criteria for contextual offers, thank you.
@PresentingPercy they're not all good. These are schools I wouldn't have wanted to send my children to and I would not class them as good. But clearly the schools eligible for contextual offers at these particular med schools (they all meet Bristol's criteria but not other medical schools) have far more issues than the ones I know about.

Very useful thread. Thank you for informing me that dear foster child might get contextual offer when he is 18. He will most likely choose to study BTEC Sport double award
and a Science but also he plays sport at County level and has an England trial in his sport which was postponed because of Covid. He would want to study Sport Science or Sport Psychology. He is very keen to go and has overcome massive deprivation in his early years. He has been catching up his peers over last four years, bit by bit. He is in Year 10 but has a tutor 3 hours a week to help him to catch up. He asks me if he will be able to go to uni and I keep telling keep working hard and you are getting closer to your peers but hearing he could get a lower offer in recognition of his appauling upbringing will spur him on. I don't think he will mind where he goes, but just getting the chance to go will be so good for him. What might be the Lowest grades he could go with? I know it is hard to predict as they change year on year. I have suggested to him as he is catching up each year he could always take an extra year to go. Also would it help if he got selected to play for England in his sport as the course he wants to do is sports related?

One of the biggest influences in DC getting to med school and vet college is whether a parent is a dr or vet. What stats are there that show what advantage this is? As a casual observer it seems huge. I imagine this info is never declared but maybe it should be?

** Somewhat contradictory statements here!

One of the biggest influences in DC getting to med school and vet college is whether a parent is a dr or vet

I imagine this info is never declared but maybe it should be?

So how do you know statement 1 then if there's no info!!!! Or are you relying on good old anecdata?

@PresentingPercy

Well if all schools are great in London - I’m all for that - everywhere. No poor schools would suit everyone better.

I do think there is a need to re-evaluate a university education. Looking at the latest grad prospects from our very best universities sees 15-20% of students not getting grad level jobs. The nation and their parents have (at this point) paid for their degrees. There needs to be a much more rigorous evaluation of what universities offer value for money for students and the nation. We have too many of them.

I do sometimes wonder - we have a long tradition of social mobility in this country but it’s stalled. Yet we have more university places. My parents went to grammar schools. So did DH and me. Millions of people came from working class roots but via education, they are not working class any more. Therefore how do we truly know who hadn’t got MC help with tutoring? Which dc don’t have study space? A post code doesn’t tell you this. Neither does it tell you that DC who live there might actually not be very bright. Looking at Sats results, do we really think the deprived DC are exactly the same in number as the MC kids? I don’t see that in any other government analysis.

The universities have widened the net so much that lots of dc are barely disadvantaged at all. The ones who are truly disadvantaged are the ones who leave school at 16. Their options in life will be limited. That said, all dc should be encouraged to aim high but I do not believe that MC children are exactly the same in number as disadvantaged DC when looking at A level results (say A-C grades). What stats show this?

@PresentingPercy I really take issue with the idea that unis have widened the net too far - there are so many students I work with who don’t meet the criteria for contextual offers or some WP work who would benefit from it massively. Additionally, we DO work with the students who leave at 16. If you’re trying to compare numbers of MC vs disadvantaged students, that’s not helpful as a flat figure. You need to look at percentages and year on year changed. What stats is it you actually want?

If you think there’s too many courses, that’s something to take up with the government who removed the student numbers cap and contributed to the marketisation of HE. That’s a separate conversation to idea that every student with the aspirations and capability, should have the opportunity to go to university, if it’s the best choice for them.

Social mobility has stalled in this country, and austerity has a lot to do with that. Identifying disadvantaged students by postcode is identifying students in areas of deprivation who are unlikely to go on to HE, who are broadly less likely to have support in their education. It’s not about study space, although this is a common issue for those students.

Frankly, SATs are not a useful measure of attainment and I don’t see their relevance to this.

[quote Chilldonaldchill]@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot, the criteria for contextual offers, thank you.
@PresentingPercy they're not all good. These are schools I wouldn't have wanted to send my children to and I would not class them as good. But clearly the schools eligible for contextual offers at these particular med schools (they all meet Bristol's criteria but not other medical schools) have far more issues than the ones I know about.[/quote]
I’m in between meetings at the moment but will have a look for this data later and post again :)

@caringcarer

Very useful thread. Thank you for informing me that dear foster child might get contextual offer when he is 18. He will most likely choose to study BTEC Sport double award and a Science but also he plays sport at County level and has an England trial in his sport which was postponed because of Covid. He would want to study Sport Science or Sport Psychology. He is very keen to go and has overcome massive deprivation in his early years. He has been catching up his peers over last four years, bit by bit. He is in Year 10 but has a tutor 3 hours a week to help him to catch up. He asks me if he will be able to go to uni and I keep telling keep working hard and you are getting closer to your peers but hearing he could get a lower offer in recognition of his appauling upbringing will spur him on. I don't think he will mind where he goes, but just getting the chance to go will be so good for him. What might be the Lowest grades he could go with? I know it is hard to predict as they change year on year. I have suggested to him as he is catching up each year he could always take an extra year to go. Also would it help if he got selected to play for England in his sport as the course he wants to do is sports related?

Looked after, or formerly looked after children will always be eligible for contextual offers and extra consideration. They are a group universities are really focused on.

If he’s working hard and even working with a tutor, he is definitely showing the potential to progress into HE. What are his current grades? There are lots of universities that accept CCC for example but it’s about finding the right university for him, which meets his needs and is the right grade profile. There are also sports scholarships which sometimes come with reduced offers, and playing at his level would definitely make him eligible for some of those.

I’m happy to be a bit more specific if you want to PM me? I appreciate you might not want to post his grades etc on here!

@PresentingPercy

One of the biggest influences in DC getting to med school and vet college is whether a parent is a dr or vet. What stats are there that show what advantage this is? As a casual observer it seems huge. I imagine this info is never declared but maybe it should be?

This is so contradictory I don’t know where to start.

There is some research that shows this, yes. Because students with parents working in competitive fields can get relevant work experience, extra interview help and generally just be more comfortable with process. Role models are vital.

But equally, parents in those competitive professions know how to provide support, they’ve likely got the money to let their children do volunteering instead of part time work, they can drive them around for open days and interviews and so on.

@titchy

** Somewhat contradictory statements here!

One of the biggest influences in DC getting to med school and vet college is whether a parent is a dr or vet

I imagine this info is never declared but maybe it should be?

So how do you know statement 1 then if there's no info!!!! Or are you relying on good old anecdata?

Glad it’s not just me who realised this statement was ridiculous

You are so cutting! Ridiculous is a strong term. You wouldn’t say that to my face if I was black and deprived! Where are the stats then? Who does get in? From what backgrounds?

@PresentingPercy

You are so cutting! Ridiculous is a strong term. You wouldn’t say that to my face if I was black and deprived! Where are the stats then? Who does get in? From what backgrounds?

You tell us - you seem to certain that it's largely offspring of vets and medics! Not sure why you're bringing ethnicity into it btw. Being black doesn't on its own make anyone eligible for a contextual offer.

And it was the statement that was ridiculous - you contradicted yourself.