Widening Participation/Contextual Admissions

[SometimesRavenSometimesParrot]

Hi all. I’ve seen quite a lot of posts lately where people seem a bit confused about different widening participation initiatives and contextual admissions, either how they work, why they work or why they’re even done... and some people asking questions about them and not getting anything resembling an accurate response.

I’ve worked in a WP team for seven years now (with a couple of short stints in admissions), so since I have often had excellent advice from Mumsnet and my questions answered, I thought I’d offer myself up to answer anything in this area someone might want to know.

I be name changed so I can be a bit more honest and I know there are several other posters who work or research in this area who might want to chip in!

Standard disclaimer of every uni works slightly different, so answers will be broad ranging - feel free to PM me if you’ve got a specific q!

May be the contextualised admissions people can advise how white male private school educated graduates who cannot get jobs can get them! There are certainly lots out there trying to get jobs

That's out of the remit of WP and contextual admissions. You're moving into the realm of university careers services.

However, we're certainly not at the stage where huge numbers of white, privately educated graduates are struggling to get jobs! Individuals maybe but as a group? No, that's not happening.

We are (very slowly) finding that employers are willing to recruit from a wider pool of applicants and universities so being white and privately educated is not longer enough!

@DelBocaVista

Plus I think it’s worth pointing out by the time we can start to make contact with students and support them, we’re fighting against ALOT of existing issues. Poor GCSE results, poor readiness for A Levels and therefore university study, frankly awful careers guidance that derails students, parents who won’t support...

So true....although there are a few of us who are working on the career guidance issue!! It is getting better :)

Definitely - you’ve just reminded me I’ve got a piece of coursework due for my L6 careers what :’)

In my area we’ve still got quite a few schools who are just shocking at advice. A highlight was a student who’d been confidently informed by her head of sixth that she’d be fine to do medicine with BTECs in IT, Childcare and Digital Media...because they do foundation years now! For me, I think this is one of the big issues where we need schools to engage with us.

Definitely - you’ve just reminded me I’ve got a piece of coursework due for my L6 careers what :’)

Yey! Hope you're enjoying it. I run a L7 careers qual so feel free to PM me if you need any resources:)

In my area we’ve still got quite a few schools who are just shocking at advice. A highlight was a student who’d been confidently informed by her head of sixth that she’d be fine to do medicine with BTECs in IT, Childcare and Digital Media...because they do foundation years now! For me, I think this is one of the big issues where we need schools to engage with us.

And this is part of the the problem- Unqualified people giving careers advice!! Gove and his bloody 2011 education act has a lot to answer for!!

May be the contextualised admissions people can advise how white male private school educated graduates who cannot get jobs can get them! There are certainly lots out there trying to get jobs

When billions of dollars of assets and thousands of jobs have moved from the City, it is unlikely contextualised admissions people can be of help.

@MrsIsobelCrawley

May be the contextualised admissions people can advise how white male private school educated graduates who cannot get jobs can get them! There are certainly lots out there trying to get jobs

When billions of dollars of assets and thousands of jobs have moved from the City, it is unlikely contextualised admissions people can be of help.

I think we might be back to Gove and his ilk on that front.

Gove is a swear word in my house!!

@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot @DelBocaVista

"A highlight was a student who’d been confidently informed by her head of sixth that she’d be fine to do medicine with BTECs in IT, Childcare and Digital Media...because they do foundation years now! For me, I think this is one of the big issues where we need schools to engage with us.

And this is part of the the problem- Unqualified people giving careers advice!! Gove and his bloody 2011 education act has a lot to answer for!!"

I'm a teacher, at the early stages of my doctorate in education. I'm interested in researching schools A level advice and guidance and impact on university admissions. Particularly looking at state schools that won't guide at all. Do you know if there's a lot of research on this? I'm struggling to see the wood for the trees as there's so much research on WP. It's a topic that really interests me though.

DD a widening participants place at her university because her school is on the magic list despite being in a very leafy affluent area (comprehensive but surrounded by private schools) reduced offer plus money towards fees.
The school was not great at support for university applications particularly for those aiming for Oxbridge or medicine - no entrance exam or interview practice unlike the famous Newham school which has five members of staff purely for Oxbridge grooming

[quote mumIme]**@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot* @DelBocaVista*

"A highlight was a student who’d been confidently informed by her head of sixth that she’d be fine to do medicine with BTECs in IT, Childcare and Digital Media...because they do foundation years now! For me, I think this is one of the big issues where we need schools to engage with us.

And this is part of the the problem- Unqualified people giving careers advice!! Gove and his bloody 2011 education act has a lot to answer for!!"

I'm a teacher, at the early stages of my doctorate in education. I'm interested in researching schools A level advice and guidance and impact on university admissions. Particularly looking at state schools that won't guide at all. Do you know if there's a lot of research on this? I'm struggling to see the wood for the trees as there's so much research on WP. It's a topic that really interests me though. [/quote]
Off the top of my head I can’t think of anything specifically on this but these might help:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/973596/The_road_not_taken_-_drivers_of_course_selection.pdf

wonkhe.com/blogs/student-choice-should-be-an-opportunity-not-a-challenge/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Wonkhe%20Daily%20-%20Thursday%2025%20March&utm_content=Wonkhe%20Daily%20-%20Thursday%2025%20March+CID_a308ab9fb25f75a49cd26d740ad05fb4&utm_source=Email%20marketing%20software&utm_term=introduces%20the%20findings%20of%20a%20new%20report%20exploring%20students%20views%20of%20the%20choices%20they%20made%20about%20higher%20education

I also feel like Sutton trust might have looked at this at some point?

I think part of the issue is schools just have to ‘do Gatsby’ and as long as they can tick those boxes they’re not necessarily doing more - when those boxes should be a start not an end.

I’ve realised my previous comment might sound like I’m slagging teachers, but I’m not I promise - slagging off the system and bloody G*ve!! There’s not enough time given for careers, teachers can’t have the time off timetable to let schools fully engage with uni provided support, teachers are asked to do things not in their remit and then to top it off things change by the minutes so how is anyone meant to stay up to date?!

You could also look at research by UniConnects - quite a lot of them have in school staff providing careers and HE support and I know a good amount of them do decent reports and briefings. Not peer reviewed or anything super in depth I don’t think but could help!

@DelBocaVista

Definitely - you’ve just reminded me I’ve got a piece of coursework due for my L6 careers what :’)

Yey! Hope you're enjoying it. I run a L7 careers qual so feel free to PM me if you need any resources:)

In my area we’ve still got quite a few schools who are just shocking at advice. A highlight was a student who’d been confidently informed by her head of sixth that she’d be fine to do medicine with BTECs in IT, Childcare and Digital Media...because they do foundation years now! For me, I think this is one of the big issues where we need schools to engage with us.

And this is part of the the problem- Unqualified people giving careers advice!! Gove and his bloody 2011 education act has a lot to answer for!!

Thank you! Just one case study to write up and then I’m done...with a few months to decide whether to start the L7 in September so may message closer to the time if that’s alright.

There are so many unqualified people giving this support...one of our schools has a PE teacher do the interviews because he did a coaching and mentoring qualification...they only have a careers person once a fortnight and she’s reserved for high achievers. The day Gove loses his job I will do a little dance.

@fiftiesmum

DD a widening participants place at her university because her school is on the magic list despite being in a very leafy affluent area (comprehensive but surrounded by private schools) reduced offer plus money towards fees. The school was not great at support for university applications particularly for those aiming for Oxbridge or medicine - no entrance exam or interview practice unlike the famous Newham school which has five members of staff purely for Oxbridge grooming

Glad to hear your DD managed to make it through the uni application process without full support - although it’s such a shame she didn’t get it!

@Longtimenewsee

1. We have assumed that dcs contextual offers are based on the fact that their gcse state school was pretty bad ( results wise and in other ways too ) and that the area we live in is a bit rough. Dc is now doing A levels in a better performing State (one they couldn’t get into at age 11 due to catchment) . But is that true ? Do unis really look at the stats of the school where gcses are taken? If so- Are there people tasked to this or is it automatic? How does it work? And are students scored somehow on this? How?

1. The couse dc wants to do at one of her choices is advertised at A AA. Dc was offered AAA ( including 2 subjects) OR* an “Alternative Condition “ which states “ You are eligible for a contextual offer. This means if you make us your firm choice, your offer will be reduced. The reduced offer is AAB (with AA in 2 subjects) ‘. So ... ( the way I’m reading it) For this uni, a contextual only comes into play if the student firms them up? Which seems mad because surely if you are eligible ( by whatever system they use) then you are eligible regardless ? Or is the seemingly lower than advertised first offer of AAA also contextualised in some way?

Not moaning btw .. am pleased dc has these lower offers Just interested (nosey) and you offered !

Very similar here! Ds1 applied to an RG University for a course that was in the prospectus at AAA. It was a bit of a hail Mary play tbh and he didn't think he'd get an offer. To his surprise he did - AAB (his predicted grades) Then a month ago he got an email from them stating that if he firmed them they would drop it another grade - so ABB. He firmed them! He doesn't qualify for any contextual offers - he has no sen/disabilities, does not live in a deprived area, we are not a low income family, he went to a school rated good by ofsted... His gcse profile was a bit spiky...from 8s to 5s...but that can't be it. I'm assuming they just want bums on seats!!

I'm a teacher, at the early stages of my doctorate in education. I'm interested in researching schools A level advice and guidance and impact on university admissions. Particularly looking at state schools that won't guide at all. Do you know if there's a lot of research on this? I'm struggling to see the wood for the trees as there's so much research on WP. It's a topic that really interests me though.

There are a couple of recent reports from UCAS which can be found here:

www.ucas.com/data-and-analysis/undergraduate-statistics-and-reports/ucas-undergraduate-end-cycle-data-resources-2020/2020-entry-ucas-undergraduate-report-where-next

For specific research on careers advice the following resources can be useful:
ICegs
Careers and Enterprise Company
Career Development Institute (CDI)
AGCAS
and Tristram Hooley does a lots of careers related research and publishes regularly

It's not really an option to just not give advice any more BUT it doesn't mean people are giving good advice or that the advice is been given by a qualified person!!

I'm a university academic and I teach a Masters in Career Development so feel free to PM if you have any specific questions.

Thank you! Just one case study to write up and then I’m done...with a few months to decide whether to start the L7 in September so may message closer to the time if that’s alright.

Of course!

There are so many unqualified people giving this support...one of our schools has a PE teacher do the interviews because he did a coaching and mentoring qualification...they only have a careers person once a fortnight and she’s reserved for high achievers. The day Gove loses his job I will do a little dance.

Ooooh this is so frustrating. I also work with career leaders and I've had a few that get one hour a fortnight to co-ordinate the entire careers strategy for their school! The CEC are doing some great work and have just received more investment form the DfE which is good news!

@Xenia

Yes, but I am just not sure about adopted children. There are lots of things we could consider- alcoholic parent even if you are in a very wealthy home, father who beats you who is a Prince even - how we make things fair is never easy.

The contextualisation has to be broad brush. I suppose the school's comment on the UCAS form can mention anything unusual but relevant.

On the parents helping children get jobs I am middle class but I have no idea how you ask your child to get a job in a firm with graduate recruitment processes. Presumably if you try you are looked on like dirt, never given work by that client or connection ever again and they think you are desperate and they then put your child on the list of people not to be taken on. Of course there are exceptions.

I suspect areas like fashion which do not have the formal paid vacation schemes/internships of law etc might be more about you can get a place if your parent has a word with a friend.

Why are you not sure about adopted children? Do you know anything at all about contemporary adoption? Do you realise that children are only removed from their birth families and placed with adopters as a ‘last resort’? Do you know anything about Foetal Alcohol Syndrome or neo-natal abstinence syndrome? Do you know about the ‘toxic trio’ of domestic abuse, alcohol and drugs? Do you realise that adoption is not a magic wand that miraculously disappears a child’s pre-birth and early experiences into the ether?

Do you know that the educational statistics for ALL care experienced, so fostered/kinship care/adopted children are dismally low when it comes to educational attainment? It’s not like adoption brings with it a gold-plated warranty that guarantees the adopted child to 10 x A* GCSEs. The vast majority of adopted children literally have brains damaged by their pre-birth or early experiences.

Honestly, I think you are being so deliberately obtuse to the point of having cracked open the gin a few too hours early. Do you read anything about the state of society?

Very informative thread. Thank you.

@SmaugMum that's very mean. @Xenia simply said was not sure about adopted children. Surely you cannot attribute anything more than that to this comment? I expect access to WP/contextual offers would be subject to age at adoption and any prevailing issues which remain from their birth parents.

@CinnamonJellyBeans, honestly, it makes NO difference the age at which babies or children are adopted. It’s a myth that adopted babies are untouched by what’s gone before. The threshold for babies and children being removed from their birth parents for neglect and abuse, including pre-birth experiences, is so high.

I’m genuinely interested to know why you think a higher education contextual offer would be predicated on the age of a child at removal from their birth parents. My eldest adopted daughter came to me as a baby but she is now, at 13, blind because her birth mother took opiates (heroin and methadone) during her pregnancy. Now, should there be a sliding scale that decides that a child adopted at a young age should have to achieve one or two grades higher than one adopted a few years older?

It’s genuinely shocking that people here think that adoption is the magic wand that makes the pre-natal drug and alcohol abuse, the chronic neglect, the sexual and/or physical abuse and a myriad of poverty and mental health-related issues vanish in an instant when the judge stamps the adoption papers.

I just wanted to thank @SometimesRavenSometimesParrot for her patience on this thread. Some of the posts here are fine examples of the maxim that when you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

I also wanted to mention that care experienced students resident in Scotland are eligible for a generous bursary from SAAS for each year of their uni studies. Foster children can also get funding for accommodation for the summer vacation, which can be useful if they still live with their former foster carers.

Sadly some English universities don’t give contextual offers to all Uk applicants, only English and Welsh.

And yes, everything that @SmaugMum said.

Actually, the shocking levels of entitlement and ignorance about wider societal issues (other than angsting about the ‘right’ suit to wear to an interview with a Magic Circle firm) make me incredibly grateful for the important work done by @SometimesRavenSometimesParrot and @DelBocaVista. It makes me less fearful that my child, who has endured one of THE worst possible starts in life, could potentially defy all of the worrying statistics and enjoy a great future.

@Xenia Polar has nothing to do with race or income it’s about progression to higher education:

www.officeforstudents.org.uk/data-and-analysis/young-participation-by-area/about-polar-and-adult-he/

I’m no expert but it really only takes a Google.

I think one thing of interest is how to focus wider participation and ask ultimately will society change due to it.

Did Tony Blairs aspiration that 50% of children attend university lead to marked decreases in inequality in this country? I think that is a matter of debate.

So if WP is to improve social mobility does it have to be done on a wider scale?

Is it better to improve life chances more generally for the disadvantaged rather than give a small proportion opportunities to study at elite universities? I guess it depends on what your ultimate hope for such schemes are.

I feel that given that there are finite numbers of graduate jobs and places at elite universities one of the consequences of WP is that some of the more advantaged will lose out (possibly marginally in reality). Now this very well may be fair but I think it is prudent to acknowledge its factual.

I think honesty about the situation allows healthy debate.

@Xenia perhaps the imaginary swath of white male privately educated graduates who can’t get jobs can’t do so due to think about pointless stuff such as the type of suit to wear to an interview. Perhaps in your day being male, white and privately educated was enough but now law firms actually care about work experience, potential and hard work the trainee pool has become more diverse.