Shift towards STEM and vocational degrees

[ErrolTheDragon]

I thought some here might be interested in this report from yesterday's Times, and today's leader column with a very positive response to it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/university-students-ditch-arts-degrees-and-opt-for-medicine-w63vnzrxd?shareToken=6e46a444cbf4ad46435a1154c599e20a

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-changing-trends-in-higher-education-two-cultures-bzzlfbjzd?shareToken=66db880492335958414064160e810114

My take on it is that it's probably to some extent an overdue rebalancing following a rise in arts subjects in former polys versus their original more technical/vocational focus. And there's more easily accessible data on employment prospects and salaries, which coupled with tuition fees doubtless informs students decisions.

I think I know the article you meant! Dreadful thing.

You don't need a degree to work in STEM you need an enquiring mind to ask questions and consider potential problems/outcomes and find patterns in data.
What you then do with that data/problem is the practical aspect which can be learnt in many different ways and applied to many different jobs.

Having now read a bit more about what foundation degrees are, it sounds like in general they're something there should be more of, and more students should be encouraged to look at them rather than defaulting to full bachelors degrees. A useful part of the rebalancing towards vocational studies, I'd have thought.

I think they would indeed have a role but I’m not sure they exist much outside arts courses. Happy to be corrected.

@PresentingPercy

I think they would indeed have a role but I’m not sure they exist much outside arts courses. Happy to be corrected.

A quick Google finds this list: ^ Popular foundation degree subject fields in 2016/17, according to HESA's Destinations of Leavers from Higher Education data, include: • academic studies in education • others in subjects allied to medicine • social work • nursing • sport and exercise science • hospitality, leisure, sport, tourism and transport • business studies • animal science • drama • management studies • agriculture • design studies.^

www.prospects.ac.uk/applying-for-university/choosing-a-course/foundation-degrees

So these are maybe designed for career changers perhaps? Some of them won’t require 3A levels possibly either. They might look for work experience and other forms of learning. It is perhaps something that could be extended? Not sure how these sit with Diplomas though.

It just seems we have a myriad of qualifications. This makes it confusing for some employers who don’t want or need grads. Some grad study is possibly superfluous too. So maybe a cheaper model should be found and post school qualifications streamlined? I also strongly believe we must get apprenticeships back on track. It’s another area where the young are losing out.

The FdAs are mainly for access (you can use them as credit towards full degrees) or for preparation for a non graduate role. there are quite a few in sports science/ science and horticulture : for example, for ODP, ambulance staff, sports coaches , florists and tree surgeons, greenkeepers in golf or recreation, forestry. The universities that offer them often have a specialism and use it as part of their outreach work, too. A significant proportion of the students are mature, but not all.

They are great : people are paid more and progress better with qualifications.

Academic foundation degrees are a different thing.

Yes I realise foundation courses for degrees are different. There is such a mix of qualifications though!

I think people are getting confused with all the different 'foundation' things!

The UAL Arts foundation diploma is a level 3 qualification in Art. It allows people to develop a much broader portfolio for entry to Art college / art degrees than they might otherwise have been able to at school.

A Foundation year of a degree programme is an extra year of a standard degree, aimed at students who didn't have either the right subjects, or the right grades, to gain entry to the first year - it's sometimes known as 'year 0' for that reason.

A Foundation degree is equivalent in credits to a Diploma of Higher Education - the same as the first two years of a standard degree programme. Often there is the option to top-up to a full degree by doing one further year. The only difference between DipHEs and Foundation degrees is that the latter are vocational. So you wouldn't be able to do a FD in Art History - that would be a DipHE, but you can do FDs in Computing, Lab skills etc.

You explained it more clearly than me titchy!

It’s still too many descriptions for what is essentially HE pre degree!

Yes, I do get it but employers must wonder why we have to make things so complicated.

It certainly gets complicated including the change from ABC for exams to all those 1s and 9s.
My son had good news from his friends - both graduated last summer as did he - both got jobs in the last 2 weeks - one has been trying since year 2 at university. He got his dream quant job this week - he read something like maths or something related to that at I think LSE., The other got a less maths type of job in project management for a good company. They are both very relieved and both did STEM (I think maths but might be wrong) degrees.

I asked my son why the quant got this job and not the others and he said it was probably as with me in the 1981 and 1982 in my last year of my law degree when I had 139 applications and 25 interviews before getting my first London law job -the more you do it the better you get. I think probability comes into it too. The more you enter the race the higher your chances too.

DD applied for (I think) 10 pupillages, interviewed at 2 and got 1. There is no way you make 139 applications for being a barrister. So you better be good pretty quickly. Ditto other roles I think. However, it is good to know recruiters are taking on young people again. There is considerable worry that so many telented young people will find it hard in the future. STEM or not.

As far as STEM is concerned, and I know this is a bit of side issue, but if the house builders have to pay for cladding removal and renovations, there will be lower level site work but the building of new homes will grind to a halt. Anyone looking for higher level jobs in this sector might be in trouble in the next few years. It is a very big employment sector with land water management, flooding assessments, road design etc all being very importgant now and an area of growth. Not sure the future will be quite as rosy as imagined for some.

That is not to say I do not think the cladding issue should not be dealt with but taking from one sector to pay for it has consequences. The price of new homes going up for a start. If they are not economically viable, they will not be built though. Where does that leave the younger generation?

I remember, many years ago, leaving LSE with my PPE degree and applying for a graduate accountancy job. I applied to the Big 4 and one boutique firm. Got offers from two of the Big 4 and the boutique firm. Accepted the job with the boutique firm, the smallest but did more of the work I wanted to go. Am still there 26 years later.

When DD graduated with her language degree last year she had a very narrow field of where she wanted to work (worried me she was not open to applying for anything else). She applied for two roles at the start of her third year and got the offer she wanted at the Easter.

It’s never easy.

It should be easier for STEM degree holders because all we hear about is shortages of people with these skills. I do think other skills come into play though.

My DD also went into a very niche field after MFL degree. Very low success rate compared to numbers training. It has worked out well but I totally agree, it is never easy. There is no way MFL DD could have been persuaded to do Stem at A level. Despite her Dad being an engineer it was not going to be her forte. Having said that, DH spent no time wth her doing engineering type things. I often wonder if he might have done more if she had been a boy. She did not do any languages until y7. You just do not know what is around the corner.

It's the main headline in the Times today, leading with the upsurge in applicants for nursing. I'd be interested to know what the sex ratio on that is, whether the realisation that this is a valued and employable profession will encourage more boys to consider it.
Also interesting in this is there's a slight increase in uni applications from disadvantaged groups, and that whereas- entirely predictably - EU applications have dropped, the number of applicants from elsewhere overseas has increased. Under current circumstances that surprises me.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/thousands-of-university-students-want-jobs-in-nursing-5m58f97rq?shareToken=a7c2d10b8e3261c6e3ced88f387e258a

@PresentingPercy

So these are maybe designed for career changers perhaps? Some of them won’t require 3A levels possibly either. They might look for work experience and other forms of learning. It is perhaps something that could be extended? Not sure how these sit with Diplomas though.

It just seems we have a myriad of qualifications. This makes it confusing for some employers who don’t want or need grads. Some grad study is possibly superfluous too. So maybe a cheaper model should be found and post school qualifications streamlined? I also strongly believe we must get apprenticeships back on track. It’s another area where the young are losing out.

It's really up the employer to do a bit of research as to the level/breadth of each qualification appertaining to their business. Surely that's the whole point of HR departments and CIPD (professional body for personnel). Owners of smaller businesses without HR departments should really find the time to do a bit of googling, which is often all it takes, but really, again, if they're running a business, they really should have enough industry knowledge to understand the qualifications relevant to their industry.

I've always thought a particular problem area is the professions, where far too many people think that a law degree makes you a solicitor or an accountancy degree makes you an accountant. I've seen countless cases of the latter, when a firm takes on an accountancy graduate to be the company accountant, and then quickly finds that the graduate simply doesn't have the "toolkit" to do the job, even at the most basic of levels.

@PresentingPercy

It should be easier for STEM degree holders because all we hear about is shortages of people with these skills. I do think other skills come into play though.

My DD also went into a very niche field after MFL degree. Very low success rate compared to numbers training. It has worked out well but I totally agree, it is never easy. There is no way MFL DD could have been persuaded to do Stem at A level. Despite her Dad being an engineer it was not going to be her forte. Having said that, DH spent no time wth her doing engineering type things. I often wonder if he might have done more if she had been a boy. She did not do any languages until y7. You just do not know what is around the corner.

Not sure sex comes into it really. Me and OH did loads of practical/creative things with our son, bought him meccano, construction sets, electronic sets, chemistry sets, etc., and we both spent lots of time playing/making things with him. OH had a bit of a workshop in the garden shed and they'd do things together. He was OK and interested enough at primary school age, but secondary school turned him right off in both art and tech subjects. The biggest change was the tech (woodwork and metalwork), I think because they "bigged" it up showing them CAD/CAM technology, laser printers, laser cutters, etc., but they never actually used them in lessons (apparently it was only the "tech" clubs/societies and A level students who got to "touch" the modern tech!). DS was left bored stiff in lessons sanding down wooden fishes and filing metal trowels. He even got conned into taking GCSE tech on the promise of it "being mostly design" but in reality, that was a lie and he was just basically left to his own devices to knock a wood/plastic radio together. I think a lot of our problem is crap tech in schools with crap tech teaching.

I've always thought a particular problem area is the professions, where far too many people think that a law degree makes you a solicitor or an accountancy degree makes you an accountant. I've seen countless cases of the latter, when a firm takes on an accountancy graduate to be the company accountant, and then quickly finds that the graduate simply doesn't have the "toolkit" to do the job, even at the most basic of levels.

Begs the question what exactly is the point of some degrees which sound like a 'vocational qualification' but aren't. I can see there may be with Law, in the same sort way that someone might perhaps study the history and philosophy of science without supposing that in any way makes them qualified as a scientist.

I do think DH might have been more hands on if we had had a DS. However that’s just him! It probably wouldn’t have changed her mind anyway.

Yes, I accept employers know their field but for young people there are a myriad of differing routes and qualifications.

If there is one employment lesson that has come to the fore in this pandemic is that some careers have 100% employment! Nursing is one of them. You will always have a job and part time working is possible. I don’t care if they are men or women as long as they are competent. However this isn’t a career for everyone. It’s expensive to train a nurse and they shouldn’t enter into the job lightly. Nor should teachers. However when you look at the ups and downs of other areas of employment, a job for life and a decent pension are attractive.

18,500 law students every year with 6000 training placements means it’s not a vocational degree for many. Also 40% of training placements might not even go to law grads. It’s no more vocational than History! Neither is MFL vocational. This leaves non stem grads going for similar jobs but whether they could have become nurses is a moot point!

Presenting - your comments regarding nursing. The daughter of a friend completed her nursing degree two years ago. She had the grades to do medicine but wanted to be a nurse. One of the reasons she did nursing over medicine is that she wants a family in the near future and nursing will give her plenty of opportunities for part time or bank hours.

Well I know plenty of part time doctors. However nursing is very flexible. The top nurses are paid well too. It’s definitely a good career.

Interesting front page of Times toady says a shift towards degrees seen as 'vocational'. Headline says nursing but it is also engineering, architecture and some others. It's not as simple as STEM vs others. DH has paper at the moment but I think it said biggest drops were in languages, history and some others.

Interestingly, they also state a rise in applications for teaching (which was reported a while back : so if that is seen as more secure and less risky, it may be shortsighted to not do a degree that could directly lead to teaching a school subject...).

@Parker231 what a shame that your daughter's friend didn't realise that once fully qualified (which make take several years) , medicine does lend itself very well to part time working