Shift towards STEM and vocational degrees

[ErrolTheDragon]

I thought some here might be interested in this report from yesterday's Times, and today's leader column with a very positive response to it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/university-students-ditch-arts-degrees-and-opt-for-medicine-w63vnzrxd?shareToken=6e46a444cbf4ad46435a1154c599e20a

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-changing-trends-in-higher-education-two-cultures-bzzlfbjzd?shareToken=66db880492335958414064160e810114

My take on it is that it's probably to some extent an overdue rebalancing following a rise in arts subjects in former polys versus their original more technical/vocational focus. And there's more easily accessible data on employment prospects and salaries, which coupled with tuition fees doubtless informs students decisions.

And for those with PhDs science sector pay is low!!

LSE does STEM I don't think even they are aware of that!!!

And for those with PhDs science sector pay is low!!

Initially, it may be, IME, the first year or two.

@titchy

LSE does STEM I don't think even they are aware of that!!!

They do the M, don't they?

Harper Adams is perhaps the most interesting one in that list.

What about Business Studies or Business Management degrees with, say, French?

@thesandwich
The attributes listed by employers is interesting. In y2 at university DD was chair of her faculty ball committee. First ball they had ever had. Although somewhat sneered at by MN posters, I think that activity clearly demonstrated the skills it seems employers look for. I think many students ignore the skills that they might need for work and think just the degree is sufficient. I don’t believe it is for many and perhaps all students need to be aware that doing more than a degree is good for the cv?

I think the vast majority of students are 18 or 19 when they start. So for most, graduation was 21 plus. Some people will barely earn 1p before they are 25 due to lengthy training and further courses. There are some people who are changing careers but overall women are not having babies in their mid 20s as they used to.

Getting onto some apprenticeships is very hard. More competitive than Oxbridge!

They do the M, don't they?

Not straight maths no. Only combined with economics or another social science/business. This is what they say:

This degree is carefully structured so that the mathematical and statistical topics you study are those of greatest relevance to economics and finance.

So hardly a STEM specialist.

LSE : London School of Economics and Political Science. Home of the British Library of Political and Economic Science.

So there's your S

I know the place has changed since my day, but I don't remember being chased for donations towards the new Chemistry labs...

Yeah, it's reaching a bit to say it has a 'STEM focus'.

I hold my hands up I was wrong, I was thought economics fell under STEM. Two of the top five are STEM focused though.

This is such a depressing thread - there are a huge number of careers in the UK which pay really really well and do not require a vocational degree. You only have to look at the leavers careers for an Oxbridge Classics degree to realise that. The point of a university education is that it should train the brain. If it does that then it produces someone who is employable in a wid range of fields. DF was one of the very first civil servants into computing and used to employ tens of thousands of staff - his view was that a classist was actually better at coding than a computer science grad as they had a much better understanding of how to approach the task. DH works in complex risk management in the City - he has a chemistry degree - it serves him much better than a properly vocational degree because he understands the applied computing (from his space science PhD) and the complex maths behind the algorithms the economists he works with use. So in the real world 2 degrees that have nothing to do with computing per se work better than the vocational STEM degree so many on here are advocating.

I think you're reading a more extreme position than anyone is actually saying. It's a shift, a change in balance. Oxbridge classics isn't where any of the shift will be coming from. The demanding courses which train the brain will still be full, I'll bet, in whatever discipline.

Coding - the best background depends on what sort of code. Mine, it's chemistry mostly - what to write matters more than exactly how you write it. We might need mathematicians for some parts, but we definitely need computer scientists for others. And IT folk so we can actually run it .... Its a field which has moved on massively since I started in it and I'd guess even moreso since your DF did.

IFS have also looked at estimates of lifetime earnings in different ways:

www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/R167-The-impact-of-undergraduate-degrees-on-lifetime-earnings.pdf

For women, the subjects bringing the highest mean net lifetime earnings were:

1. Economics
2. Medicine
3. Law
4. Maths
5. Politics
6. Business
7. Engineering
8. Physics
9. Pharmacology

10. Chemistry

Agriculture, Physical Sciences (materials and earth sciences), Technologies and Nursing were all in the bottom third.

For men:

1. Economics
2. Medicine
3. Maths
4. Law
5. Politics
6. Geography
7. Business
8. Languages
9. Chemistry

10. Engineering

For men, there were 3 STEM subjects in the bottom 10: Agriculture, Physical Sciences and Nursing, as well as the sort of STEM Psychology.

The STEM subjects do somewhat better when looking at what the average graduate of that subject earns, rather than the average salary (which is driven up by very high earners at the top end in some non STEM subjects like economics, law and politics).

In terms of employability, the numbers of each category must matter. How many economists vs engineers, for instance?

How depressing that the value of a university degree seems solely to be linked to earning power.
If the last five years have shown me anything, it’s that critical thinking, communication and intercultural skills are needed more than ever, and these are skills which MFL graduates have in spades.
But some of the best, most important work I’ve seen has also been from Theology and Religion graduates, very few of whom earn the top salaries, but who gain deep rewards from their work and offer huge amounts to the community.
I’m really getting sick of STEM being the be-all and end-all. We need balance and to recognise the value of subjects beyond a pay packet.
And it’s perfectly possible to earn a high salary with a Humanities degree.

@titchy

LSE does STEM I don't think even they are aware of that!!!

Yes, they offer BSc degrees ... www.lse.ac.uk/Statistics/Prospective-Students/BSc-Programmes

How depressing that the value of a university degree seems solely to be linked to earning power.

I've never been on that page either. Obviously it will play into some youngsters choices, together with employability which I'd rate higher. I'm not convinced it's the be-all and end-all for most, and nor should it be. A choice that is likely to lead to a combination of job satisfaction , value to society and earning sufficient to your needs is sensible.

The studies being quoted are from the IFS! Of course they are about money. It’s what they do. However with loans it’s possible students are more interested in fiscal outcomes now?

If anyone has a table of jobs giving the greatest satisfaction then it would be interesting.

MFL grads are difficult to quantify because they diversify into so many other areas. Degrees don’t define their careers. History degrees too. Science degrees like Engineering are more likely to do this regarding work and salary outcomes.

However with loans it’s possible students are more interested in fiscal outcomes now?

Perhaps this rebalancing marks a diminution in the (minority, I hope) view I've seen which really was depressing that it didn't really matter what you did as you wouldn't be paying back the loan anyway.

Although with the loans you never pay a penny back in England until you earn £26k a year so for many they can be a gift from tax payers to young people in a sense - not really a loan for many.

www.timeshighereducation.com/features/leading-double-life-academics-extraordinary-second-careers

A little frivolity. Things you can do with STEM. And History. Although it is only fair to point out that the Armani model was already in modelling pre IUCL Mechanical Engineering PhD. I particularly like the historian's comment, It is fun to say that something’s not right, but if you don’t offer an alternative that works with the script, you might as well not bother. Decades ago, when I was a newly qualified staff nurse (my pre - and during and post, for that matter - LSE existence), one of the sisters told us the same about her friend's experience of being, or at least trying to be, an advisor to the TV series Angels.

The pay thing is a blunt metric but other things are harder to measure.

I'll say it again. There's a severe skill shortage in nearly all technical roles and skills. 3/4 of the graduates we recruit to our team have been educated outside the UK. Don't you think that young people should be informed about the job opportunities and growth industries and roles available before they make decisions at 16? Of course the economy changes, it doesn't always work, but the current non-system is a car crash.

It's not about putting down arts and humanities, society would not function without them, but letting too many of our young people choose expensive university degrees that don't provide the skill balance needed is a scandal.

I think there’s a tendency for the comfortable middle class to think of further education as just another stage in the educational journey, a stage in development which is also a bit of fun before settling down to hard slog of work life for (increasingly likely) ever!
Many people from other cultures and socio-economic backgrounds see it very differently. Have any of you ever read ‘The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother’? A refugee/immigrant friend described a different attitude - ‘you don’t work, you don’t eat’. She explained that education is seen as a massive privilege to be exploited to the maximum to ensure so far as possible security for the child and wider family not only in financial terms, but also in building the kinds of networks that might help you avoid future want or persecution in political change through embedding the student in the establishment or elite of the relevant country. Given that this is the case, it’s hardly surprising that a focus on degrees which appear from the statistics to be most beneficial financially are favoured.
Given that we’re moving towards what appear to be economically turbulent times, it’s likely that many will look to vocational degrees with clear career paths.

• titchy LSE does STEM I don't think even they are aware of that!!! Yes, they offer BSc degrees ... https://www.lse.ac.uk/Statistics/Prospective-Students/BSc-Programmes*

BSc isn't the same as STEM

BSc isn't the same as STEM

Clearly not, as Oxbridge STEM degrees are all BAs. However, those LSE BSc's require a solid grounding in maths which, as a pp mentioned, is the 'M' in STEM.