Shift towards STEM and vocational degrees

[ErrolTheDragon]

I thought some here might be interested in this report from yesterday's Times, and today's leader column with a very positive response to it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/university-students-ditch-arts-degrees-and-opt-for-medicine-w63vnzrxd?shareToken=6e46a444cbf4ad46435a1154c599e20a

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-changing-trends-in-higher-education-two-cultures-bzzlfbjzd?shareToken=66db880492335958414064160e810114

My take on it is that it's probably to some extent an overdue rebalancing following a rise in arts subjects in former polys versus their original more technical/vocational focus. And there's more easily accessible data on employment prospects and salaries, which coupled with tuition fees doubtless informs students decisions.

@MarchingFrogs

www.timeshighereducation.com/features/leading-double-life-academics-extraordinary-second-careers

A little frivolity. Things you can do with STEM. And History. Although it is only fair to point out that the Armani model was already in modelling pre IUCL Mechanical Engineering PhD. I particularly like the historian's comment, It is fun to say that something’s not right, but if you don’t offer an alternative that works with the script, you might as well not bother. Decades ago, when I was a newly qualified staff nurse (my pre - and during and post, for that matter - LSE existence), one of the sisters told us the same about her friend's experience of being, or at least trying to be, an advisor to the TV series Angels.

I'd love to see the materials science comedy gig!

@Xenia

Although with the loans you never pay a penny back in England until you earn £26k a year so for many they can be a gift from tax payers to young people in a sense - not really a loan for many.

Yes. It's perfectly proper there's a safety net and that loans are affordable. But it's really not ok for a minority of students to 'go to uni for the experience', cynically aware that they aren't planning to repay a fraction of the costs.

The repayment structure is configured so it hits most hard the solid, steady middle earners. Earn below the threshold, pay nowt. Get a highly paid job - you pay it off before much interest has accrued. In between ... a graduate tax for decades, a massive amount in total.

No idea what would be better, maybe more scholarships and bursaries, perhaps with 'golden handcuffs'?

@Criagert

BSc isn't the same as STEM

Clearly not, as Oxbridge STEM degrees are all BAs. However, those LSE BSc's require a solid grounding in maths which, as a pp mentioned, is the 'M' in STEM.

It definitely seems that LSE is shifting focus more towards the M part in STEM. In my my day it was known for its politics and law degrees (as well as economics) and political debate. These days it’s is less well regarded for both compared to back then. And the political debate has arguably been replaced with a corporate attitude focused on studying statistics and working for an investment back. Shame.

That sounds like a misguided change, Juno. Wouldn't it be better if their focus was still excellence in "politics and law degrees (as well as economics) and political debate. ", but (maybe this was the always case?) with all this informed by a solid grounding in statistics?

The modern world needs expert statisticians, but it's a subject where many professions would benefit from at least a basic grasp.

Yes no doubt a solid grounding in statistics is beneficial for many professions but LSE is becoming much more maths focused. That was never in the original remit.

@Xenia

Although with the loans you never pay a penny back in England until you earn £26k a year so for many they can be a gift from tax payers to young people in a sense - not really a loan for many.

But those who do go to Uni to get decent jobs paying more than average will pay for decades, not only the loan, but the stupidly high interest rate too. Yes, the loans are fine for people who don't intend to get decent jobs or who plan to work part time to avoid earning the average wage level, but for those who plan to work full time on decent money, it's a 30 year millstone around their necks. Even more so for people earning in the say 30-50k bracket who will be repaying slowly for the full 30 years so will be the ones hardest hit by the interest. At least the real high flyers will pay it off more quickly so won't be as badly hit by the interest.

@LastDuchessFerrara

What about Business Studies or Business Management degrees with, say, French?

Does anyone have any thoughts? DD not suited to STEM.

It’s the price that was paid for more going to university. I think we still expect 50% of loans not to be repaid. People cease to work full time etc. Or are self employed. It’s not really stopping the majority from getting on with their careers. Most people want promotion regardless of paying a higher grad tax!

I think the push to Stem and vocational has partially been driven by fees. It’s also widening degrees to encompass many more professions/jobs which was not deemed necessary previously. It’s still the case that RG educated young people earn more and those that don’t go to university earn less than anyone. I would still argue for the middle way to be in colleges of HE not offering degrees. Overall I’m not sure we actually have a better or more productive workforce just because someone has a degree in film studies or even marketing. Many careers can be learnt with jobs and day release.

The impression I am getting from what dd and my nieces have told me is that students are not giving up on MFL. Alot of students are choosing to take joint degrees or degrees where they can continue to study a language to hopefully lead to better career prospects and higher earnings. Dd has two housemates taking PPE with Russian on the side or other taking Maths with German. My niece has taken Spanish with Geography.

A friend of DD’s did law and French. Now working for one of the European banks.

MFL departments are closing and exam entries are going down. However it’s very good advice to add a MFL in as joint honours. Universities would like to keep their departments open and offer as many as possible. Adding a MFL into a competitive course often helps get an offer. The universities want linguists.

This is the results of a fairly recent study.

@PresentingPercy

MFL departments are closing and exam entries are going down. However it’s very good advice to add a MFL in as joint honours. Universities would like to keep their departments open and offer as many as possible. Adding a MFL into a competitive course often helps get an offer. The universities want linguists.

During Uni open days, my son has been surprised and impressed at the choice of degrees (i.e. dual honours), and also the optional modules within single honour degrees. Same with the Natural science degrees, where there is sometimes enormous choice of subjects so you can choose to basically build your own degree. He hadn't a clue as to all the choices/options available and school never mentioned any of that. It was good that we went to, maybe, 10 Uni open days where the various options etc were outlined during the presentations. And yes, there is a big push for either a dual honours with a MFL or at least a MFL as an optional module in a single honours - not to mention the push for studying abroad for year 3.

It's not about putting down arts and humanities, society would not function without them, but letting too many of our young people choose expensive university degrees that don't provide the skill balance needed is a scandal.

I agree, it seems as though University courses just seem to get more and more bloated with courses that are irrelevant outside of University life.

techround.co.uk/news/ten-ridiculous-degrees-you-can-actually-study-in-the-uk/

[quote Xoxoxoxoxoxox]It's not about putting down arts and humanities, society would not function without them, but letting too many of our young people choose expensive university degrees that don't provide the skill balance needed is a scandal.

I agree, it seems as though University courses just seem to get more and more bloated with courses that are irrelevant outside of University life.

techround.co.uk/news/ten-ridiculous-degrees-you-can-actually-study-in-the-uk/[/quote]
Those subjects would be wonderful (and popular) optional modules in single honour degrees to give extra breadth to more stuffy or academic degrees.

@PresentingPercy

MFL departments are closing and exam entries are going down. However it’s very good advice to add a MFL in as joint honours. Universities would like to keep their departments open and offer as many as possible. Adding a MFL into a competitive course often helps get an offer. The universities want linguists.

DD was a bit put out by one of her interviews, the chap focussed in on the fact she'd done German gcse... only because her school made them do an MFL and it was one of her B grades so no, she wasn't interested in signing up for 'engineering with German' . not her thing, and it didn't stop her getting an offer but I assume could have been helpful to a slightly borderline applicant, and I'm sure it's a great opportunity if you've got the aptitude. Though maybe doesn't help with the brain drain of engineers to European countries which value them more, thinking of your earlier observation! Her course, and I'd guess many, allows languages as a module option in one or two years. Her BF did an initio Japanese.

This seems like quite a sensible way forward, to add on language skills for those who want to communicate but maybe not engage with literature. But I hope that good language departments continue - not just MFL but mediaeval Italian, ancient Icelandic or whatever too, at appropriate scale.

[quote Xoxoxoxoxoxox]It's not about putting down arts and humanities, society would not function without them, but letting too many of our young people choose expensive university degrees that don't provide the skill balance needed is a scandal.

I agree, it seems as though University courses just seem to get more and more bloated with courses that are irrelevant outside of University life.

techround.co.uk/news/ten-ridiculous-degrees-you-can-actually-study-in-the-uk/[/quote]
At least three of that top ten are degrees from one of the best places for creative arts in the world! Colour me surprised that a tech website would hold such programmes (and ones in Communication) in such low regard!

That sort of list usually features a mix of some which the compiler doesn't understand, and some which should maybe be diplomas rather than degrees. I'm not quite sure what the status of a 'foundation degree' is (which is what some of those are) - the name implies you can build on them (as with 'foundation year')but that doesn't look like it would really be the case.

Arts colleges often run 2 year courses and call them foundation degrees.

I’m not entirely sure that adding a MFL to a degree means the degree holder immediately works elsewhere in EU or the world. However working collaboratively with others is very necessary. MFLs help. We definitely need more skills in MFLs not less. I recognise they are not for everyone and too many DC seem to find them hard. But that applies to many subjects but dc knuckle down. MFLs are the first given up. Or moaned about.

@Xoxoxoxoxoxox Linking to a thread that puts down creative arts degrees is a bit silly when you want to argue that more young people should be looking for degrees that will equip them for the world of work. The creative arts sector is a huge contributor to the UK economy. www.thecreativeindustries.co.uk/industries/arts-culture/arts-culture-facts-and-figures/the-economic-contribution-of-the-arts

The UK is a world leader in fashion - those doing a course in psychology of fashion will be contributing to the economy in spotting trends/fashion buying etc and earning up to £75K at the top end or perhaps starting up their own boutiques etc; an MA in Cities from St Martins - a crown jewel of our higher education btw - is targeted to architects and planners and is intended to look at how to design and restructure to create greener and more sustainable urban environments.

It's a really sneering article , nicked from somewhere else. Quite a few of the 'degrees' on there are MAs!

I also wouldn't 'laugh' at someone doing an FdA in floral design.

I remember a similarly sneery article about a foundation degree in golf course studies. The university in question responded that their graduates were highly sought after, had 100% employment rates, worked all over the world and had average salaries of around £40k!

RG Birmingham does a proper proper degree in Golf Course Management.

@Piggywaspushed

RG Birmingham does a proper proper degree in Golf Course Management.

It might well have been that - I can't remember!