Another path to greatnesses

[chopc]

I woke up around 4:30 this morning and it hit me like a tonne of bricks. Couldn't get back to sleep so thought I will have a go and starting the new thread. Hope the title is not too cheesy

Thank you @mikeandike 😊 and @SeasonFinale she is doing English lit, Durham is no1 for English. Royal Holloway is good for English too, a friends Dd went there and loved it sothat is why she applied for rh, and she also has Lancaster, which she will look at to.

DS won’t be reapplying as I can’t see the point. Having said that, he doesn’t have any specific career path in mind at this stage... If anything, he wants to be a singer

Just a thought, when I was doing the 11 plus rounds with DD, there was one head at a particular girls school who gave a talk which I found very refreshing. Basically she said that the traditional career paths eg law, etc are likely to be very reduced in the world out DC are going into. She said, the average graduate is likely to change job or even career maybe ten times. It will become the norm for people to work flexibly, start up their own businesses and work from home. The main thing we need to be teaching students now (according to her) is resilience and flexibility because we can’t even begin to imagine the rate of change that is about to take place in the world they’re going into. She said those who succeed will be those who can adapt.
Her words really stuck with me.

The thing about English is: most employers don’t care what books you have read. What plays you have studied or what poems. They will be look at what a candidate brings to the job. If they look at university attended, RH isn’t standout. They almost certainly won’t look at it as brilliant for English because they won’t know. It’s better for non science grads to aim high for the university, not for the subject. Unless they want to teach then it is less important. English grads don’t find it particularly easy to get grad level jobs.

Thank you @mikeandike

@PresentingPercy can you elaborate a little more about the difference between science and non science grads?

Aren't non science subjects a lot harder and subjective hence command lower offers from most universities? However from what you say science subjects are held in higher esteem?

Dd is not reapplying. She’s has just started to make her peace with rejection and begun to get excited about the offers she has been (very!) lucky to have received (Durham, York, Leeds and Edinburgh) . She’s just really unsure about what to use as insurance now as the offers are a bit all over the place.
I was worried about her for a few days so I’m really relieved she’s perking up. I think she has an oxbridge postgrad in her sights .

@Beetlesand what subject is your DD?

Are all masters mainly research based? Or is that just the case at Oxbridge? I didn't do a masters and nor did DH as it wasn't required in our fields

@chopc Chemistry

@PresentingPercy thank you for the info. Will read through the post slowly as there is a lot to digest isn't there?
I can't imagine in medicine where you go to University would influence how much you earn ...... however personal ambition does. Eg if you choose a speciality especially a surgical one where you can generate private practice, you can definitely earn more money. I think from every medical school you get people in all different specialities. Actually that would be an interesting study ..... to see if certain grads are more likely to pursue orthopaedic or cardiac/ neurosurgery as opposed to others

Ds was successful second time around. His feedback was that he had done extremely well in the entrance exam, and they tried to find him a place (pooled to two colleges) but he was difficult to draw out. He reapplied with 4x A* (gained normal times) and in his gap year worked and read, read, read. He did a totally different ps. His interview did not touch on past work at all; all they were interested in was what (reading) he had been doing after his A Levels.

BUT - and you only need to peruse the student room to see the carnage - it’s vital to get it into your head that you are going to your back-up choice. Your chances are not substantially better; you are judged more harshly against the upcoming herd, which is as it should be. Ds was so excited about St Andrews that he was a bit sorry he couldn’t go to both. St Andrews had been really nice, offering straightaway and sending updates and bits of info every week (unlike a certain place beginning with D...).

So to reapply I would say make sure you are in the game with the entrance exam and - absolutely essential - exceed the usual offer. And don’t rely on past glories (eg stuff done in yr 12) because they’re expecting to see an upward trajectory.

Actually medicine is the one area where there is actually less sniffiness about which uni you go to as it is so competitive and many do see it as a 2 year attempt to get an actual medicine place anywhere.

chop - I always thought your BA didn’t really matter once you have your MA / MSc. A bit like how your A-levels are more relevant now than your GCSEs?

I did a broad humanities first degree which had nothing to do with the career I went into, it was the MA that determined that. DH came here as a young child with asylum-seeker parents and a disability that meant he spent months at a time in hospital as a child up until the age of about 14. He was not academic at school and really lacked confidence, had to retake A-levels, but eventually managed to get onto a geography degree at a non-Russell group uni where something just clicked and he went on to get a first. After that he spent a year abroad doing environmental work. Then he thought he should get a “proper job” so he sent off his CV to various graduate schemes at banks. He got on one, but he had only been there about two weeks when an investment bank contacted him. He was in the next day for the interview and started on the gold options desk on the next day. He literally learned on the job and it was tough but he survived. They funded his MBA. After 5 or 6 years on the NY and Asia desks as well as London, he left because he found it soul-destroying tbh and he’s never worked for anyone since. With a couple of friends (none of whom were Oxbridge) he founded and eventually sold a very successful .com. But also he’s had another, totally unrelated company that employed over 1,000 people internationally until he sold that and he’s always had various non-exec director roles too and that’s what he still does part-time ish. So that was with a geography degree from a uni that would many would consider crap.

Search for www.ifs.org.uk. Then search for degree. A number of studies come up. The best one is the slides of a recent presentation. Men do a lot better in economics and medicine! So no doubt choice and ambition comes into it. Masters and post grad doesn’t do much for earnings overall but in some cases it does.

Younger people do well with stem subjects regarding earnings but others catch up. It’s clear that where you study English or Philosophy won’t make you a high earner unless other conditions are present. Eg conversion to law is an obvious one.

Nice to hear about your DH quest1on.

Do pathways like this still exist in 2021 though? It's a different world now

Morning all!

@chopc no, he had to request the feedback then submit a countersigned form.

@SeasonFinale yes that was my concern, that he'll get some very generic feedback. However given there was no opportunity to ask for anything specific, just a form to sign, not sure how we'd go about getting anything more useful- request additional details once the feedback arrives (at Easter!) perhaps?

@PresentingPercy your DIY application does sound incredibly stressful. I can't believe the Deputy head said you were wasting your time - how rude. Good advice on making peace with other choices too.

@mikeandike that's interesting that your DD is considering reapplying - does she really love the C course or is it more the whole package? I can imagine it must be quite conflicting when you start to get involved in the 'new' uni offer holders group chat though - they seem to do so much getting to know people stuff before they even go now, friends dc have been chatting to their new hall flat mates well before bowling up in October- when I went it was just move in, leave your door open and go and meet everyone in your corridor- I'm sure knowing people in advance must make the transition much easier.

@quest1on and @Beetlesand good that your DS and DD are happy with their other options. Quest1on what's your DS studying again? Also your DH's story is inspiring!

@IrmaFayLear that is excellent advice and as seasonfinale said, any re-application really needs to be stronger and show evidence of recent work, no good just re-submitting the original and hoping for another outcome.

I know enough Oxbridge graduates who have stalled in their careers or don’t even have a career at all, and plenty of people who graduated from ex polys and less fashionable universities who have stellar careers.

Those considering reapplication: Next year is a high birth year. I'm also unsure of how much credibility CAGs will have when your child will be up against students who will actually have tangible grades.

Any supra-curricular that you can add to your PS will be only one year old and could look contrived.

Your child has missed out on so much peer interaction and group learning this year; taking a gap year to reapply will extend this. I'm not sure how healthy this is for a teenager. They need peer interaction and If they enjoy learning, being back in education will be good for them.

Everyone with a suitable child wants them to have to Oxbridge experience and you are justified to feel and express all of the those feelings. Let's be honest; if we swapped one of the successful applicants for your child, no one at Oxbridge would be able to tell the difference. So there is nothing wrong with feeling this way or even feeling angry and cheated.

Applying the first time round is a massive gamble. It takes guts to apply. You and your child put everything into it, sometimes for years. You have had a massive blow. Reapplying is a bigger gamble and another redirection would be even more devastating, as well as the wasted year.

Totally get what you are saying @CinnamonJellyBeans and thank you for putting it in black and white

@SeasonFinale

Hi just to let you know that after the 6pm deadline I have had some UCL and Durham science offers through and Edinburgh humanities offers so hopefully itbwont be too long a wait for people.

Thanks *@SeasonFinale* any news on History applicants?

I agree about re-applying @PresentingPercy before we heard about Oxford dd had talked about re-applying if she wasn't successful. Now she has pretty much ruled that idea out. We discussed it and I told her that if she does reapply she has to be completely mentally prepared for another rejection. She thinks it would be a waste of a year and even looking at next year we don't know the position with covid and what gap year opportunities will be available.

I love your dh's story @quest1on he must have amazing strength of character, so wonderful he built a successful career after a difficult start.

I’ve been reading this thread and the Oxbridge one with interest. DC1 wants to apply to Oxford in a year and it’s so helpful to see the process, the hard decisions and u-turns needing to be made and any emotional fallout. Forewarned is forearmed. I feel for you parents!

I hope you don’t mind me contributing but there are a few things I really want to say.

1. My heart sank when I saw Percy, who doesn’t have a child in your situation, mention the universities and degrees with the best future salaries for undergraduates and how these are economics and medicine. I agree some of that info is helpful (and requested!). However there are definitely a few posters on MN Higher Education who imply economics and medicine and science degrees on the whole are by far the superior degrees and the amount of posts about these subjects can seem dominating. I would hope that all our DCs are choosing their universities and subjects not just because of earning potential, how soulless if they were. I’m not saying it’s not important obviously it is, but so is being the right fit and the love of learning. Humanity degrees promote some very important skills, including analysis, communication and flexibility of thought.

1. Let's be honest; if we swapped one of the successful applicants for your child, no one at Oxbridge would be able to tell the difference.

As a general statement, this is insulting to Oxbridge and its students. I’ve no doubt it applies to some applicants. But if there was no difference, why interview? Do it all based on paper like some other universities. Get the best candidates on paper and who cares if they don’t have any extra flair that only comes out in person. It’s insulting to assume that the interviewers cannot determine additional characteristics including how creatively or logically a candidate can think on the spot when questioned. It’s insulting to assume that parents are better judges. Children & YP are often so different in the classroom. We are not all subject specialists in their chosen degree subjects, or do we often share the same interests.

Obviously the young people are great But for whatever reason, they didn’t get in. In some cases it will be because although they’re great in paper, the tutors are looking for something demonstrably more. There are people who got in on lesser grades, and that might be because they were able to show an intellectual or creative spark in the interview even they they’re not as good on islet as they haven’t done all the right EC, can’t learn by rote and aren’t great in exams.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

It’s difficult to know if that trajectory would happen now. Not easily. I’m assuming it’s some time ago? I also think there are hugely successful entrepreneurs who have never been to university at all. Some people have that X factor and university never matters. For the majority it’s a different story and the ifs info bears this out.

@Outlier

1. My own DS is a History applicant and I am not at all offended nor downhearted by what Percy posted- she did not conduct the study. It's research done by an independent company and the results are what they are. I know the History degree won't hold my DC back and after all he should do what he enjoys at Uni.

1. I think the poster was trying to say the margins are very small and whatever you say or think there is an element of luck and other factors that comes into a DC getting a place or now irrespective of their interview ability. We will not know what they are but Oxbridge Dons themselves admit they don't always get it right.

Some posters here have had DC at Oxbridge and I don't know if they share your feelings that it's an insult to their DC's

Good luck with your DC's application for next year

Economics and medicine can lead to high salaries eg my son's friend who just graduated has gone into financial servicse as a quant I think or something related to that and I believe he is very good at maths and read economics (or possibly maths). My sibling read medicine at Oxbridge and not only has an NHS consultant job but also a lot of private income too from other medical work - going to Oxbridge ad reading medicine (and working full time as all we siblings have always done) makes a big difference to earnings (if earnings matter to people)

One of my daughters how is a London lawyer and went to Bristol had Royal H as her back up but that was over 10 years ago when on her course Bristol took 50% people fewer than they now do. We know the numbers because one of her brothers did the identical course there 13 years after she did.