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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Another path to greatnesses

998 replies

chopc · 26/01/2021 05:40

I woke up around 4:30 this morning and it hit me like a tonne of bricks. Couldn't get back to sleep so thought I will have a go and starting the new thread. Hope the title is not too cheesy

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UnityUnited · 30/01/2021 16:10

Money isn’t everything. Chances are in your lifetime, when you are at your most vulnerable, you will be thankful for the skill and professionalism of a nurse who may well have trained at a ‘new’ university. I value them more highly than financiers. I wish the rest of society did too.

CinnamonJellyBeans · 30/01/2021 16:12
  1. Let's be honest; if we swapped one of the successful applicants for your child, no one at Oxbridge would be able to tell the difference.

There's very little difference between most of the interviewed candidates, whether successful or unsuccessful. The selection process weeds out the non-starters, especially Oxford. If you make it to interview then you're one of the academic elite and you're in good company.

Any other year, chances would have been a lot better. This was a tough year; lots of deferrals from last year so fewer spaces. Universities are making sure they don't over-offer because of CAGs. I imagine there were many more suitable applicants who did not get a place this year.

The interview is just a very small part of the entire process. There's your grades, placed in context with your school and your cohort, your teacher reference and not least the 4000 word PS.

You assertion that the students who get an offer demonstrate some extra dimension of academic ability that stuns the interviewer is not necessarily true. They don't have to turn cartwheels while reciting Greek. If you've made it to the interview, then you're eminently suitable

Outlier · 30/01/2021 16:12

going to Oxbridge ad reading medicine (and working full time as all we siblings have always done) makes a big difference to earnings (if earnings matter to people)

With the greatest respect Xenia, no shit Grin

Of course degrees in economics and medicine are more likely to lead to higher salaries. That’s undisputed. But it’s largely irrelevant to students studying other things, unless they’re meant to feel inferior? What I’m getting at is that there is often IMO an undue focus on economics and medicine on this board and this thread is about a range of subjects.

Outlier · 30/01/2021 16:18

You assertion that the students who get an offer demonstrate some extra dimension of academic ability that stuns the interviewer is not necessarily true

I was very clear it wasn’t necessarily true for all. That’s why I didn’t make a category statement Smile

And yes anyone who gets an interview is academically capable. But if it was just about academic capability and achieving certain grades, they wouldn’t interview. It’s also about fit. And intellectual qualities that don’t come out on paper.

Obviously what I said doesn’t apply for all the students here; fit a start, it doesn’t apply to the ones who were pooled. They absolutely could be interchangeable.

CinnamonJellyBeans · 30/01/2021 16:22

Hopefully you won't need to eat your words

chopc · 30/01/2021 16:23

@Outlier I am not sure where you got that impression from

I think majority on their board are in fact DC's who have applied for humanities and languages

I would however like to know how medicine earns the big bucks - I think private practice can be lucrative in very few specialities IMO . Sorry if going off thread topic

@UnityUnited we were just talking about this last night - the people who have kept us all going during lockdown eg delivery drivers, post people, shop workers, healthcare staff etc are all relatively poorly paid compared to the private sector. It's a shame .......

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UnityUnited · 30/01/2021 16:29

@chopc Exactly. I hope that people don’t forget how those people who many people would have looked down upon are actually the people we have the most to thank. The financiers all scurried off to their houses in the country. They are not people I would want my dc to aspire to be.

Outlier · 30/01/2021 16:31

This was a tough year; lots of deferrals from last year so fewer spaces. Untrue -see statistics

I completely agree this was a tougher year because of Cambridge in particular not wanting to over offer. I agree that many suitable candidates wouldn’t have got offers as a result. But I also think it’s important to be realistic with our children on a case-by-case basis. For a handful (NOT ALL!) this will mean thinking about whether they really did put their best foot forward. A good life lesson. Anyone who has reapplied as had to consider if they’re more likely to get in next time after more preparation/a different direction/exam practice.

Outlier · 30/01/2021 16:37

@CinnamonJellyBeans I hopefully won’t have to eat my words because I try really hard to take a pragmatic approach. If DS gets rejected I will no doubt feel the sting and think he was worthy, but I will make myself also consider rationally what practical takeaways he can get from that. And I know that regardless of his brilliant he is, I won’t have been in the interview room or looking at all the other PSs in comparison, so I can’t really say if he deserved it over others or not. For interviews we can only go on what our DC say and their perspective is understandably sometimes skewed. Some come out thinking they did terribly but then get a place, and vv.

CinnamonJellyBeans · 30/01/2021 16:42

That's true. But I think a lot of parents feel that way and when the offer doesn't come, it's more devastating than they think. You have to find a way to rationalise it.

Hopefully your DS will do well, but it is a very tough process to go through.

UnityUnited · 30/01/2021 16:45

It’s not tough for everyone. My eldest didn’t get in and I was fine. It’s not a huge deal for some people.

Outlier · 30/01/2021 16:46

Sorry typo above I mean INTERVIEW practice.

@chopc I know most of your DC are humanities. What I was trying to say was that there is A LOT of sometimes self-important posts on the HE board about economics and mathematics being the best of most lucrative degrees; I found it dispiriting to see that view come on here and hoped it didn’t take over.

I absolutely agree with @UnityUnited ‘s posts. I find it depressing to see financiers’ “success” being touted as something to emulate or the amount of money you earn being something to aim for.

sandybayley · 30/01/2021 16:58

@Outlier - I have a DD who'll be applying next year, probably to Oxford so we'll no doubt meet on the 2022 thread.

I'll go into with eyes wide open. It's a punt for her and it might work out for her (as it did for her brother). But it more likely won't. Either way it's fine. If she doesn't get an offer she'll get in somewhere else.

Outlier · 30/01/2021 17:17

Hi @sandybayley Smile

I’m going to stress to DS that he cannot go into the process thinking Oxbridge or bust and while applying to Oxford, to simultaneously consider the pros and cons of other universities.

I do really feel though for all the DC and parents here who are upset. Regardless of whether this year was even more competitive or not, these Covid times are so stressful anyway that it’s a horrible time for any other disappointment and uncertainty Flowers

IrmaFayLear · 30/01/2021 17:34

Ds when he didn’t get in was fine. I think attending interviews in person showed him how competitive the field was. When it’s all virtual you can only judge yourself against yourself, iyswim. And I’ve mentioned before that the assembled interviewees at his college were told they had 8 places and there were 40 of them there, so although they’d all done well to get an interview, the vast majority were going to be disappointed. That made ds feel better about it.

chopc · 30/01/2021 17:37

To be fair I think most of the kids even on here ARE fine with their rejection. It's us parents that are having a hard time coming to terms with it

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UnityUnited · 30/01/2021 17:40

I think it’s fine to be disappointed and also ventilate that here. I hope you don’t mind being reminded that it really isn’t the end of the world. Now, more than at any other time we have to remember what’s important.

sandybayley · 30/01/2021 17:40

I hadn't thought of the @IrmaFayLear but you're absolutely right. Spending 4 days in Oxford in December 2019 with lots of very bright 18 year olds made DS1 realise what the 'competition' was. He really enjoyed the experience but was acutely conscious of the other candidates and came away feeling a little bit of an imposter TBH.

PresentingPercy · 30/01/2021 17:49

I find it somewhat ironic that I am called out because the situation my DD faced was not the same as rejection in January yet Outliier's DC has not even applied yet! As least I can truly say I have cried for weeks after the A level results. I know how awful it feels when things you hoped for go wrong and there is nothing you can do about it - other than look forward and eventually pull yourself together! I know that now and I was hoping my experience would help. Clearly Outlier will not need empathy as her DC has not been through any process yet but posts on this thread - and others are self-important? Bizarre.

The discussion about jobs and salaries is often relevant if students was competitive careers. If they do not then that is fair enough too. I totally believe students should study what they want to study but go in with eyes open.

My DD did a humanities subject. She did not do a "lucrative" degree. However it is reasonable to look at what is, as the IFS do in their study That is not to say that unsuited DC should go into these fields. Medicine - certainly not. I do not really get the pointed comments towards me. I always find research interesting. I simply shared it.

quest1on · 30/01/2021 17:53

Outlier - Personally, I don’t believe in this notion of the “x-factor” or the idea of a stranger spotting “potential” in a child or young person - except for in very exceptional circumstances. Yes, you can obviously assess if a student seems engaged and articulate to a reasonable degree. But those with “potential” may not shine at interviews and vice versa. It’s massively subjective.

I bet if you sat the same student with 10 different tutors they would come out with 10 different interview scores. They don’t even attempt to standardise the questions asked - some have two interviews and are sent by 4 tutors; others just one.

That is NOT to disrespect any candidate who has a place because if they do it is very well deserved. That is a given.

My DS was diagnosed with dyspraxia when he was 6 and this manifested in him not being able to hold a pen, among other things. “Oh don’t worry about that,” said the nightmare hothouse of the pre-prep we were stupid enough to have put him in (thinking it would be all nurturing and supportive because if the small class sizes) .. “Colet Court and Kings College Juniors are experts in spotting POTENTIAL, you know. Yes they know it when they see it - you must give him a go... “ Well what bcks that was because they evidently saw not a lot and DS for 5 rejection letters at the age of 6 (obviously he didn’t know at the time). He went to a non-selective school for Years 3-6 which was the makings of him. Then at 11 plus, he got into those schools (though he chose a different one in the end). So clearly he had the “potential” but they didn’t spot it three years earlier! And when he did get in, I do not for one second think he got in because he had “something special” that the teachers just “saw.” It’s a lottery really and he got lucky. This is why they all have to sit sit 5+ schools - it’s hedging your bets. My DD was much more switched in than DS at 11, but she didn’t get in to his school, although she got into others which are supposedly more “prestigious.” Also, of the 1,400 or whatever who sit for these schools, 400 are interviewed for about 100 places, but of course any one of the 400 would have coped in those schools just as well if not better than mine. In fact, my experience shows this to be true as they have many many friends in other schools who have done just that. So DS is nothing special, he’s reasonably able, but mainly he’s very, very fortunate to have had certain opportunities available to him. Sometimes you put yourself out there and it pays off, but oftentimes it doesn’t and you just have to roll with it really. But also, success or knockback, you can’t let these things define you.

sandybayley · 30/01/2021 18:16

@quest1on - I think the Oxford interview and admissions process is less subjective than you make out. There was a very good TES piece about it based on some pieces written by Alan Rusbridger of LMH. Reading it it certainly sounds as though it's a robust process.

www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/alan-rusbridger-lifting-lid-oxford-admissions

Outlier · 30/01/2021 18:20

I find it somewhat ironic that I am called out because the situation my DD faced was not the same as rejection in January yet Outliier's DC has not even applied yet!

I didn’t call you out for that reason @PresentingPercy I “called you out” for redirecting to a focus on the highest earning salaries and degrees, when economics and medicine had not been mentioned much up to that point. It’s a personal bugbear of mine on MN that, IMO!, there is an undue focus on potential earnings and future employment opportunities based on the name of a university and degree subject. I hope I made it clear it was a personal rant Smile

Vargas · 30/01/2021 18:20

I've read most of the thread and it's been a rollercoaster ride! I won't get involved other than to say how sorry I am for those, kids and parents, who are upset by Oxbridge redirection. I guess I am fortunate that ds had never mentioned applying to Oxbridge until last summer, and then we sort of knew it was a punt. Also, he possibly wouldn't agree with this but I never felt he had enough passion for his subject, Geography, to really get him jumping through all the necessary hoops. Luckily he is very robust and seems to have bounced back well. His school (selective indie) don't see to have got many into Oxbridge so that has definitely helped him feel he's not the only one.

My friend's dd got redirected too, she had a good cry and has since bounced back. Again, she was sort of having a punt as well. Her bf however had 'dreamed of Cambridge' since primary school and is now absolutely devastated. I feel heartbroken for her and I hope she bounces back soon.

Anyway, onward. Ds is still waiting for Durham. I am trying to push Exeter quite hard as he has a nice offer due to his EPQ, and I think he would really enjoy it there. I have several friends with kids there who are having a great time. Plus as a friend said it's down south by the sea and not in the cold north Grin. That opinion may readily change if Durham make an offer Wink.

UnityUnited · 30/01/2021 18:23

The English ‘elite’ love nothing more than a mysterious entrance policy, the notion you are in or you are out and far more demand than opportunities to make things ‘exclusive.’ It’s best not to let yourself get caught up in it.

quest1on · 30/01/2021 18:36

Sandy - I’m talking about interviews specifically, not the overall process. One if DS’ teachers used to participate in the Oxford admissions interviews and he said that ‘fit’ means very different things to different tutors.

But again, I do not wish to take anything away from any successful candidate because they have clearly done exceptionally well in a range of areas, only one of which is the interview, and should be very proud of themselves..

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