BA Law and legal practice or the traditional BA (hons) Law LLB route?

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If anyone can help us decide the best route for DS to take we’d be grateful.

He is keen to become a solicitor so was naturally looking at the BA honours degree in Law LLB. He is applying to Cardiff, Swansea, Aberystwyth and Winchester.

He has since found the following course run by Trinity College St David’s - BA Law and Legal Practice.

www.uwtsd.ac.uk/ba-law-legal-practice/

Which will allow him to qualify as a solicitor after sitting the SQE exams.

Can anyone advise if there are any pitfalls by not doing the LLB honours course? Will the BA without honours be a degree that less positively looked upon? If he takes that will it still open doors to other opportunities like work in HR, civil service etc or will that limit him to only becoming a solicitor?

If anyone has any input I’d love to hear it!

Yeah sorry a degree without honours is certainly far less well regarded than one with. Why would he choose that over the LLB?

Choose the best uni he can - Cardiff over Win every day. Law as a career is competitive, and is still one of those areas where often your uni counts. And RG counts more than former HE college.

Echoing the PP, law as a career is very competitive. Unless there is a need to stay local and that’s the driving force, I’d choose one of the others.

It’s a hugely competitive career. Cardiff is his only RG uni on the list. He needs to be more ambitious than this. You just don’t walk into a solicitors who will train you. You compete for it. So he needs to look at Bristol and Exeter if you must stay local. This isn’t a great policy either.

To put this in to context: 19000 students take law at university each year. There are around 6000 positions to train as a solicitor each year. The training positions are also open to grads who have converted to law, para legal employees with law degrees and law conversion qualifications and anyone who didn’t make it in previous years and did a masters etc in the meantime.

He will need to be good! Look closely at who exactly are getting training positions from these universities. They are so local the competition amongst grads must be fierce. None of these unis is a strong contender for a London job. He should consider in house legal jobs. Widen his horizons. If he’s likely to get As, he needs to aim high.

If he does a BA non honours degree that would be very very unusual. If he does an LLB honours degree he will need an upper second to be considered by many law firms and usually AAB at A level minimum and even then it is very competitive. If he does the LLB he will then probably know what he needs to sit the SQE1 exams probably immediately after his degree. He will probably then need to do some kind of course to learn for the SQE2 exams but if he has found a firm to sponsor him they will probably pay for that and for his SQE2 exam fees and possible SQE1 fees too. He should try to get some informal work experience and then in year 2 of his degree apply for vacation schemes - these are 1 or 2 weeks and are paid and many law firms recruit trainees from them about 2 years ahead. He needs to be aware of the timings [not leave it late like my children....].

There is a list here of universities from which law firms tend to recruit which I think is reasonably accurate www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019 My daughters who are solicitors in London went to Bristol and Nottingham and their younger brothers who are studying post grad law now both went to Bristol. Those are places fairly high on the list although some firms are trying to recruit without looking at the institution provided degree is a 2/1 and the A levels are high grades, as they want to avoid bias and do not want to miss good people who are very bright but went to easier to get into universities.

Half of solicitors do not read law at university but then do an extra year studying it after - that is the case for teh 4 of my children are in law although I did the LLB which saved me the extra year of studying although even then you still have the one rather than 2 post grad years studying under the current and probably future SQE system (as firms want people to have finished all exams SQE1 and 2 before they start their 2 years training with them).

Finding the sponsorship firm/Job is where it’s highly competitive though. If you don’t get this, the costs are very high. Even local solicitors will get a very good choice of candidates and I’m seeing local firms try out people as para legals and then recruit from them. A try before you buy system.

A non honours degree is pretty worthless in my view. I do wonder if university blind applications are changing recruitment stats? Non RG recruitment has been, historically, very low, but doesn’t quality come to the fore with university choice and Academic suitability in the first place? Other selection criteria sifts out the best candidates and they seem to be at RG universities. If recent stats say non RG is picking up then I’m happy to be corrected. It’s not just university and A levels that make a good solicitors but it’s often the first hurdle to be overcome.,

Yes, ;probably. Slaughter and May , a law firm, are trying to help people but this programme seems to seek (rightly) to encourage sixth formers into better universities rather than sort out the issue later www.rarerecruitment.co.uk/slaughter-and-may/lead-in-to-law

I’ve friends working for Addleshaw and Herbert Smith - worth checking their summer programmes and graduate system.

A lot of the summer internships are hugely competitive too. It’s just the best advice to aim high for Law. Not just local. Bristol and Exeter should be on the list above every university mentioned by the op.

Thanks all,

The non honours degree appears to be a new course developed to train students to the level they require to be able to sit the SQEs - the route to becoming a solicitor is changing in 2021?

It’s all explained on the link to the course. I’ve passed on all of your advice and he’s now looking at Bristol and Exeter too.

Thanks again

I echo what everyone else has said as well. Has he looked at Chester ?

Passing SQE1 and 2 (and passing the current LPC course (plus GDL if you do not read law at university)) is not that hard bit. Many many more pass than will obtain training under the new and the old scheme and even under the new scheme if you manage to cobble together training in various places over 2 years if it is not at good firms it will be hard to find an employer when you qualify so it really will be much better for him to obtain an honours degree in law at a good place (or in a different subject but at a good university if he would find it hard to obtain a place for law and then convert after).

It depends what sort of lawyer he wants to be - if he's after a job with a big London or national firm doing work for major corporate organisations (whether that's M&A, or commercial property, or big litigation work) then go to the best uni he can, and hope he can get sponsored. I'd only recommend pursuing this path if he's really bright and hard-working. Note that he doesn't need to do an LLB - he can do any degree he wants, though it'll add a year to his training.

If he's not as strong academically, or if he wants to become a high street solicitor (working for individuals, whether that's doing small business work, conveyancing, litigation or criminal work) then yes, there are other, cheaper options that will get him up and working sooner. But there is no way "up" to the big leagues if you start down this path, whereas you can go "down" if you decide that big law firms are not what you want.

(Note: I don't mean any disrespect to high street solicitors it's a reference to the size of work done, rather than the importance of it).

As other posters have said, big national law firms will often arrange vacation schemes etc, but start off doing work experience for your local firms (if you can) and go to open days, as the vac schemes are even more competitive than the training contracts.

As someone said to me, you have to really educate yourself on what it means to be a lawyer, and the different types of law, and what sort of work they do in order to get a place at a large firm. Which is, sadly, one of the reasons why it's still so much easier for those with the right connections to get a job.

There is a lot of competition to get into decent high street firms! No one with a law degree from somewhere like Chester or Winchester are a shoo in anywhere! Not all family lawyers are remotely dodgy by the way. The big one that advertises a lot isn’t great but most solicitors are good. What you cannot expect is to walk into a job from a very low ranking university. Bristol and Exeter are very different.

Very competitive, quite traditional and where you attend matters a lot. I would suggest looking other than Winchester for starters. Traditional RG universities or those widely regarded specifically for law and the best option otherwise he'll be another law graduate working elsewhere. It's very hard to get a training contract even with a first from a good university plus finals

Should add there is another path to investigate which is essentially an apprenticeship - my friends firm is offering one place a year for someone with good a levels but doesn't feel university is fir them and you study for your degree pt. they got part funding from a widening access fund and they did have very different criteria to normal recruitment

What’s he looking for op? Big law or high st? Law is really competitive as pps said, only about a third of students get training contracts, and remember many of those can go to previous year students, conversion students etc.

My daughter went to one of the highest ranked rg unis and came out with a high first, she then worked as a paralegal whilst doing her lpc, with a top ten firm, she has now started her training contract with an even bigger firm. Many of her cohorts, who also got firsts did not get training contracts. It was not easy for her, and it’s a lot of work, I mean all in that will be a total of seven years to qualification and it’s been a lot of work, and not easy at all.

He needs to think about what kind of law he wants to do, and he needs to go for the highest ranked uni he can to give him the best chance, and he needs to accept anything less than a 2:1 will likely count him out.

It is actually considerably less than 1/3 of Law grads getting training contracts. |There are around 6000 training contracts a year BUT they are not just for newly qualified grads. Many firms take on their paralegals. Previous grads with Masters and previous Law grads will also be applying. Not to mention law conversion grads. Often applicants with good experience and/or volunteering record. It can take several years after graduation for some to get a training contract. May never get one. Also, never underestimate the grads from other disciplines. They can be around 50% of grad intake into the larger firms. Therefore the new Law grad has a huge amount of competition.

I would look at apprenticeships. However I would guess they would be equally competitive. Employers will still have a great choice of young people.

The best advice is to aim high with regard to university. If A level pedictions do not suggest a high rankig university, think very hard about whether Law is the right degree. Would he do better at another subject and then convert? Go into law with your eyes wide open.

Always get work experience and volunteer. That does not ncessarily have to be in law related areas when he is young. It shows you understand the value of communication and being useful. A lot of volunteering roles are in short supply at the moment but when they start up again, make sure he does something. At university it is vital he hones his skills. I think being around equally ambitious students is also a driver.

None of these unis is a strong contender for a London job

Ahem I beg to differ - Cardiff is RG and anyway, even if it wasn't good enough for the Magic Circle (which it absolutely is) there are hundreds of other law firms.

Apprenticeships are worth looking at but probably even more competitive.

Also it is brilliant that most people do not qualify because the last thing the public needs is lawyers who are not up to it just as we don't want doctors who will not be up to the standard to operate on us. It is not a bad thing that it is hard to qualify. The regional firms and high street firms are not necessarily an easier route either as they can be quite competitive and have many fewer training contracts than the bigger firms but you can qualify in various ways. Eg one of my daughters trained someone she recruited in-house and the girl did her training contract whilst doing a 2 year part time LPC and qualified last year. It was very kind of my daughter to take on all the hassle of that and monitoring and checking and training her but it is certainly another route for some to qualify.

If someone is up to going to Bristol or Durham it would be pointless to go somewhere worse and similarly with apprenticeships - they might look good aged 18 but it is possible the lack of a degree might be held against you later as most young lawyers move firms a few times and people hiring them might not be that keen on the apprenticeship route. I am not saying never do it and Leigh Day has one for London black people only which is an apprenticeship to qualify in law www.legalcheek.com/2019/09/leigh-day-advertises-specifically-for-black-aspiring-lawyers/ You have to be black and you have to had done A levels in London. They don't have a similar scheme only open to people who are white.

With the SQE coming soon where anyone who does SQE can qualify as a solicitor with 2 years paralegal experience the market will be flooded with solicitors. I have to say that then yes the same as good A levels (minimum AAB) a 2.1 from one of the better ranked unis will be even more important to actually secure qualified solicitor roles soon rather than just training contracts.

I do not think the employment stats put Cardiff as a top university for London firms. There is a definite pecking order amongst RG universities! This might well be because Cardiff grads stay closer to home for work and do not apply. It is the same as the OP's DC. Not looking further afield to the best options. Having said that, London is not everything and many do not want the long hours and competitive nature of the firms, but in terms of pay, it is.

Leigh Day want their recruitment policy talked about. It is advertising around a worthy cause that everyone can identify with. One swallow does not a summer make for black grads. Other firms do not do this.

@PresentingPercy I’ve looked at their recruitment policy and I don’t see anything particularly out of place?

What grades is he predicted op? His uni choices aren’t very high ranked predominantly which could indicate not high predictions or a lack of understanding of gaining employment in the field.

The overwhelming majority of law students don’t make it to practice law. Likely in the 80 plus percentage group.

Yes there are lots of high st firms, but many roles are simply not lucrative . I mean I’m talking thirty odd grand a year max. Why does he want to be a lawyer? Is it a passion for a specific area of law? Or does he want the money?

Law is a hard degree, and it’s the one where the least firsts are awarded. And it’s one if you want to practice you need to be in the top students really.

Watching what my daughter has been through and how she’s worked, I’d honestly not recommend it unless you really loved it. She does, and it’s suited to her personality. But it’s not the case for many students, with many drop outs after the first year and much disappointment in seeking a training contract at the end and most failing.

I’d ask him to look very hard at route in, what type of law, what fields, and what the degree itself entails. For example it’s a shit load of reading. And I mean a lot. And quickly. Thousands of pages. And being able to absorb it. The standard joke is it’s always the law students in the library at midnight.

So I’ve not done it, but I’ve watched my daughter do it, and my opinion is it’s a hard choice. She knew from about 15 she wished to be a corporate/commercial lawyer, and she spent a lot of time understanding the different unis, which law firms predominantly drew from which unis, what the degree entailed etc, and what she needed to achieve.

@cinammonbuns: I am not sure what you mean. I did not say anything was wrong with the recruitment policy. I think you will find it was not me who made the comment about a similar scheme for white only grads. My comments about Leigh Day reflect that many feel black lawyers are under represented but one firm having a special recuitment policy is a drop in the ocean.

It is also perfectly possible to study another academic subject at university and still go into law. A law dregee is not the only option. Sometimes this is a better route for DC. It certainly was for my DD. She has the skills from her first degree and then law conversion. Not a solicitor though, a barrister. Ditto her boyfriend, All routes are possible with planning and aptitude and a very good degree fron a very good university that reruiters like!