BA Law and legal practice or the traditional BA (hons) Law LLB route?

[Coughanddrop]

If anyone can help us decide the best route for DS to take we’d be grateful.

He is keen to become a solicitor so was naturally looking at the BA honours degree in Law LLB. He is applying to Cardiff, Swansea, Aberystwyth and Winchester.

He has since found the following course run by Trinity College St David’s - BA Law and Legal Practice.

www.uwtsd.ac.uk/ba-law-legal-practice/

Which will allow him to qualify as a solicitor after sitting the SQE exams.

Can anyone advise if there are any pitfalls by not doing the LLB honours course? Will the BA without honours be a degree that less positively looked upon? If he takes that will it still open doors to other opportunities like work in HR, civil service etc or will that limit him to only becoming a solicitor?

If anyone has any input I’d love to hear it!

Well after a long chat it appears that he’s also open to other careers, he hasn’t ruled out teaching, law, HR etc. He would want to do conveyancing if he became a solicitor and he’s a bit of a home bird hence the choice of unis.
He wouldn’t want to move to London and would be happy in a high street practice.
He is drawn to law as he loves the subject, he’s very engaged and enthused by his lecturer.
He got AAC as AS level with Law being one of the A subject. He’s predicted around BBB but with a bit of push could get A’s in at least one of the subjects.
So, it seems that it may be better for him to take an LLB course if he can get on one. I’ve told him competitive it is but he not worried, he’ll switch to another career path if needs be.

Oh the confidence of youth!

I’d ask him to think about that op quite carefully.

Firstly law a level is very different to the degree, many unis don’t like them to do it but aren’t speaking out.,,they are remaining silent, but it’s seldom to never on the list of preferred a levels, that’s usually English, history, politics etc. So their actions speak louder than their words. It’s kinda misleading as to what the degree is like and can set students off on thr wrong foot.

Secondly being a conveyancer at a standard high st firm is not a high earning job, he’s likely to earn about thirty, maybe thirty five grand a year max unless in London when he’s at the peak.. Don’t get me wrong, if that’s what he wants, fair enough, not everyone needs to go after big money, or needs to do something exciting, but that’s a lot of work to aim for high st conveyancing, with a lot of cost associated with it.

It’s one thing to end up doing this for a variety of reasons, it’s another to aim there.

Personally I’d be asking him to look at what law degree entails. The workload. What it’s really like. With the predicted grades he’s unlikely to get an offer from an rg uni for law, so will need to aim for a lower ranked one,

The reason I’m saying this is you don’t want him to get in, realise what he’s done, and then drop out. Also I think there is other routes in, Ie cilex if he just wishes to be a conveyancer.

Our solicitors gives conveyancing work to trainees or conveyancers who do nothing else. Most solicitors would expect more from their job. I think he needs to read up on the elements of a LLB but for most of these degrees, BBB won’t be good enough I’m afraid. What other A levels is he doing?

If he works for a high street firm and gets a training contract there, he probably will still have to fund all the studying side.

So even less value for money.

So is it the case he's choosing a law degree because he liked the a-level? I choose a degree course on the same basis but had to swap after a year as it was so different from the a-level and I want good enough to continue. My background is as a lawyer at a large national firm, following LLB at Birmingham Uni (career change now). I've done quite a bit of recruitment and my two firms prioritised excellent results from a good uni, over a law degree. So for example I recruited someone with a first in English Lit which you might find suprising, but they are a very talented lawyer now. I enjoyed some of my degree but it was a hard slog and I only just scraped a 2:1 despite 3 As at A level (when there were no A*s). I managed to get some summer placements and was offered a couple of training contracts but it took me an extra year and I had to take a year out. I know if I had got that 2:2 I wouldn't have made the interview pile at any of those firms. So I would say he should do a degree he will enjoy and do well at the best uni possible. And not worry about a career choice until after his first year ideally.

It might be useful for us to know his other 2 A level subjects. It is best to have at last 2 of the traditional subjects (so not including law). Lawyers tend to advise against people doing law A level.

However there is no reason if could not form contacts with local firms, read his LLB at Cardiff which is probably the best of those mentioned that he has considered, get work experience in local Welsh law firms in university holidays, go to events at those firms etc and really work the Cardiff legal market to try to get in there. I know someone who worked at Geldards.

Geldards has £283k profit per equity partner images.law.com/contrib/content/uploads/documents/378/UK-Second-50_2017-18_v3.pdf

So if we look at a Cardiff solicitor doing property law at that firm randomly - I just looked one up uk.linkedin.com/in/susanne-bradley-73943438 She went to Birmingham after comprehensive school in Newport. A levels in English, French, German and Latin.

You could equally pick smaller Cardiff firms and check where the newest hired people went to university who do conveyancing just to see the usual places they go.

I loved my law degree and got university prizes, top in year etc so I certainly don't put anyone off reading law. It is a really interesting subject and my sons who started criminal aw this week post grad - I do feel those who do law after - law conversion - learn less law as they are cramming the 3 years into one. I still remember from my degree bits of law ( even criminal law which I have never practised) I have not used since but were a better foundation than a law conversion course. Despite that half of top lawyers don't read law so it really does not matter as long as you get good grades at a good place.

He’s doing Law, English, RE and Welsh Baccalaureate.

His predicted grades aren’t high enough for Cardiff unfortunately, so he may struggle with an offer, he should be ok for The rest though. No reason not to still apply to Cardiff though. It really depends also on his other subjects. But generally it goes on predicted grades.

But remember the entrance requirements are there for a reason, the higher they are, the more self study and harder the degree. They actually aren’t all the same. The lower ranked unis spoon feed more. It’s why a degree at one uni is worth more than a degree at another.

Swansea is the highest ranked out the remaining three, followed by Aberystwyth. Winchester is last, at 100 odd, so I’d discount that to be honest.

If he wants to be a conveyancer there are other routes into this, it’s a diploma, but I’d assume you want him to get a degree. As such, maybe a more general one would be better

What are his other a level subjects?

Sorry cross posted op. He may struggle with those subjects for law. But someone Welsh can help more on what that baccalaureate would bring to the table.

My DD did MFL degree and is a barrister. English at university is no barrier to any law career. Ditto history and any strong academic degree. One of Dds barrister friends has a degree in music. Plenty of lawyers are non law degree holders but they bring other skills with them which are valued. It’s not all about a law degree.

You only need one successful interview. What grads have to work our is how to get the interview and how to shine at interview.

RE and English are fine. If I’m honest History might have been better than Law but if he could ace them, he will be ok. Most law schools won’t look at English or RE as being unworthy. Law is marmite but an EPQ might help a lot.

Yes and of those he has one, English, which is a traditional what was known as "facilitating" subject. RE is often done along side two of those traditional subjects eg English, History and RE would be good but law will not be held against him if he does well. It is better to have two traditional subject (or three and indeed the Cardiff property lawyer lady I looked up above has four).

As said above however there are plenty of ways to skin a cat and there are a lot of relatively successful lawyers on Mumsnet so you get a bit of a skewed picture. Some people do make it through with lower than AAB A levels working their way up through regional firms. Sometimes you can look at the kind of firm where you would like to work and see the biographies of the younger people who just started there as solicitors so see where they went to university to see their route into practice.

I agree that if he cannot get into Cardiff Swansea is next best.

I’d not recommend the law to anyone other than the very brightest at the moment. As others have said it’s ridiculously competitive. The numbers are simply against you. And the new SQE system will take a couple of years to bed down and I cannot see that the big players will all of a sudden look to anyone else than the top graduates they already recruit (as opposed to the bloke in the post room who is studying part time).

And can I just whisper that the word “Honours” actually means nothing. My Cambridge degree doesn’t have that magic epithet. Just saying....

Yes but you have the words "Cambridge" and your degree attached to your name.

And can I just whisper that the word “Honours” actually means nothing. My Cambridge degree doesn’t have that magic epithet. Just saying....

And can I just shout that yes it does! With few exceptions (old Oxbridge, Scottish MAs), non-honours degrees are not the same as honours degrees - the latter are classified (non honours are simply pass/fail) and often graduate schemes are only open to those with 1sts and 2:1s.

DD and her flat mate both got As and A*s at A levels, 2:1 from a RG mentioned unthread as one to go for and are still applying for vacation schemes and TCs 3 years later. They're working as Paralegals hoping for a break.
DD did English Lit, Philosophy and Ethics and French at A level plus an EPQ, her flat mate did English Lit, History and French
As a parent I can see how brutal the application process is.

aDog - totally agree. One of my friends is a Partner in one of the Silver Circle law firms and went to a small not well known Uni. She says that the process is much more difficult now.

@titchy one of my children is a 2:1 graduate of a RG Uni - does not have an “Honours” degree. It is just (subject) BA . Honestly it’s an affectation not adopted by all universities and doesn’t matter a jot in terms of recruitment.

I would recommend that anyone with kids wanting to read law or do the conversion after their degree to read the Chambers article (link above provided by Xenia) as it does reflect the true position regarding employability.

If he wants to do conveyancing he might be better of not even going to university and just doing a solicitor apprenticeship or licenced conveyancer exams.

I think @titchy is referring to Ordinary degrees (or Pass degrees) which at most English universities are awarded to people who have completed a degree course but not done well enough to get an honours degree, i.e. their work is below the standard necessary to get a 3rd. They can also be the final qualification for degree courses that are not of a sufficiently high academic standard to meet the agreed benchmarks for an honours degree. They are not very commonly awarded these days.

This is a different thing to whether or not some universities choose to use the Hons designation when describing their Honours degrees.

In the case of the course referred to by the OP, it looks like it is a normal honours degree, but is just not using the term.

[quote VanCleefArpels]@titchy one of my children is a 2:1 graduate of a RG Uni - does not have an “Honours” degree. It is just (subject) BA . Honestly it’s an affectation not adopted by all universities and doesn’t matter a jot in terms of recruitment.[/quote]
Check the degree certificate - bet it's got 'honours' on it!

I agree with previous posters than it is difficult to obtain a training contract at the moment but things could possibly change with the introduction of the SQE - your son can qualify as a solicitor with a period of recognised training as say a paralegal (he would still need to get a degree and pass SQE1 and SQE2) so as long as he found a job as a paralegal or something similar it would take the pressure off of having to secure the elusive training contract.

Hi OP,

I did law at a RG uni back in the late 90s having got reasonably good A-levels for then (ABB). It was a slog. I was talked into doing it by my parents and have to an extent regretted it since. I think with hindsight I would have been better doing one of the subjects I really enjoyed and then doing a conversion course afterwards as the course itself was pretty dry and most years we probably had a maximum of 8 hours lectures a week with the rest being self directed study (hundreds of pages of required reading before every lecture, most of which I didn't do as was too busy drinking pints on the union...)

I came out with a 2:2 and at that stage decided law wasn't for me. I do something entirely different now, but often wonder what might have happened if I'd taken a different route and done a degree that I actually enjoyed.

I agree also with those saying if you want to do conveyancing in a local, high street firm, there are other routes which might be more appealing and less competitive in terms of places.

Not at all wanting to put him off, but it's a bloody hard course, not for the faint hearted! 🤣

@Confusedcatlady1 this will just make getting the paralegal position much more competitive and therefore won’t achieve the aim of widening access to the legal profession. As previous posters have said there are too many law graduates languishing in document rooms hoping for a training contract to be offered under the current regime.

@VanCleefArpels I don’t disagree with you. I’m not sure I would necessarily be advising my children to go down the solicitor route because as already established it is so difficult to get into (and tbh trainee solicitors and newly qualifieds are sometimes treated quite poorly) but I was just suggesting another route rather than the traditional training contract.