BA Law and legal practice or the traditional BA (hons) Law LLB route?

[Coughanddrop]

If anyone can help us decide the best route for DS to take we’d be grateful.

He is keen to become a solicitor so was naturally looking at the BA honours degree in Law LLB. He is applying to Cardiff, Swansea, Aberystwyth and Winchester.

He has since found the following course run by Trinity College St David’s - BA Law and Legal Practice.

www.uwtsd.ac.uk/ba-law-legal-practice/

Which will allow him to qualify as a solicitor after sitting the SQE exams.

Can anyone advise if there are any pitfalls by not doing the LLB honours course? Will the BA without honours be a degree that less positively looked upon? If he takes that will it still open doors to other opportunities like work in HR, civil service etc or will that limit him to only becoming a solicitor?

If anyone has any input I’d love to hear it!

@VanCleefArpels

If a student doesn’t like reading, an English degree is not the best choice!

Social sciences offer an interesting degree course, able to be tailored to areas of interest, good transferable skills that employers like. So things like Geography, Sociology, Criminology, Psychology

I don’t think she said he doesn’t like reading?

@Bluntness100 no you did
But law is a very academic degree and he is not that academic. I could be wrong but I don’t think he wants to be sitting literally reading thousands of pages weekly and in the library at midnight.

I’m not sure Swansea would have all law grads doing that. They wouldn’t all fit in the library! Like most courses there is a gradual intro to law and even the very concentrated GDL doesn’t require such long hours. That’s also a route worth considering.

[quote VanCleefArpels]@Bluntness100 no you did
But law is a very academic degree and he is not that academic. I could be wrong but I don’t think he wants to be sitting literally reading thousands of pages weekly and in the library at midnight.[/quote]
Yes fair point,,,

literally reading thousands of pages weekly and in the library at midnight

This is not what the average aspiring magic circle trainee has to do, let alone those not wanting to join that type of firm! Law is no more academic than almost all other degrees, and very arguably not any more work.

I am reading this thread with increasing feelings of trepidation and certainty thatI’ll never get a job as a solicitor, never mind in the specialism that interests me.

And yet in real life I actually am a partner in a fast-growing solicitors’ firm!

Fwiw completely agree re doing something with a year in industry. Not journalism for Chrissake, for the sensible reasons set out above.

My DT’s both graduated with 1st last summer - I’m sure neither were ever in the library at midnight; the students union bar, yes. And I was no different when I did my degree (many years ago).

Yes. I think the work levels stated are way over the top. I think most reasonably able students would be fine.

As a partner I assume you are not in the market to find a job now @UndyingDeathdefying? What might be useful to know is what your trainee solicitor recruits have in terms of cv - education, age, work experience etc. What does your expanding firm look for? In my location there is considerable choice for solicitors regarding applications from very well qualified people but I’m not sure they have not worked all hours on their degrees. Personality and employability are also taken into consideration. There is also the issue of which area of law you practice and there is a lot of difference in specialisms.

Correct Percy.

We want people who can make themselves useful from the beginning. Steady, good listeners, staying organised, able to get the gist or quietly go away and figure it out, able to form alliances with each other and quietly cover each other’s backs, no strong quirky characters, able to cope with stronger characters of clients and solicitors. Able to do 3/4 dross work then hope we’ll notice the 25% that required more brain power (which I do but some don’t).

Some people have a natural ceiling on the academic skills and ambitions. That isn’t really a problem.

Very different from when I was a trainee when I just had to shadow and had no billing targets.

....if you think about an excellent primary school teacher nurse or GP, that’s who you want as a paralegal/trainee.

The academic stuff comes out in their ability to look at my existing work and adapt it to new circumstances. A desire to win cases comes out in the “not taking no for an answer” when a clerk or a witness or in official gives them an answer that isn’t an answer to a question I’ve sent them off to ask. So the “brash” intelligence type would just be a pain, you need subtlety.

So it’s about deploying the intellect in a useful way.

@Coughanddrop

Well after a long chat it appears that he’s also open to other careers, he hasn’t ruled out teaching, law, HR etc. He would want to do conveyancing if he became a solicitor and he’s a bit of a home bird hence the choice of unis. He wouldn’t want to move to London and would be happy in a high street practice. He is drawn to law as he loves the subject, he’s very engaged and enthused by his lecturer. He got AAC as AS level with Law being one of the A subject. He’s predicted around BBB but with a bit of push could get A’s in at least one of the subjects. So, it seems that it may be better for him to take an LLB course if he can get on one. I’ve told him competitive it is but he not worried, he’ll switch to another career path if needs be.

Oh the confidence of youth!

Conveyancing - as in residential conveyancing?! No offence but he would be better to start work in a conveyancing firm and then do the ilex exams whilst in work there - at least he wouldn't end up with a ton of debt and could leave if he didn't like it. There are very few solicitors working as domestic conveyancers and earning much money - unless they are working at niche private client firms doing off market mega bucks transactions. The other way to make money in conveyancing is by volume so most firms use paralegals to do the majority of work with a few (not terribly well paid) solicitors to supervise.

How much experience does your son have of law? Any work experience?

He’s not really old enough to have done much. I do think DC have great difficulty in understanding the large variety of work undertaken by solicitors. It ranges from dealing with criminal work on a low level right up to mega bucks in London and even being a Supreme Court Judge. It’s very wide. Often young people from non law families just don’t appreciate the breadth and variety.

DD did an area of law she wouldn’t have considered at 17. You angle your work experience towards what you might want. You sometimes realise it’s what you don’t want! There’s always time to change. However as described above, there’s lots to
learn but there’s more to it than that!

It is one reason the traditional 2 year training contract with 6 months in each of 4 areas of law is a good idea as when studying law people think they like XYZ law but when they start training in the office realise they don't so having the 4 "seats " has worked pretty well and I hope most firms keep something similar i the new version of training contracts coming out under the SQE system.

the amount of work involved. 3 modules a week (maybe 4)

Each module
1 hour prep - find and download all the cases/articles/slides
2 hours lectures
then reading which is usually
textbook 1 chapter (50 pages) maybe 2nd cases textbook 50 pages
then say 3 articles - 20 pages each
and 3-4 cases you should read in detail - 20 pages each
so maybe 200+ pages to read. Now I can read harry potter in 6 hours but this is dense stuff with not a lot of descriptive bits.
So lets say 6 hours reading.
then answer tutorial questions - 1-2 hours to prepare those
then the actual tutorial - 1 hour online
then post tutorial follow up of notes/cases mentioned - 1 hour

so that is 13 hours per module (assuming quick reader), 40 hours per week.

So no need to stay up all night if you work 9-6 every day, 1 hour lunch.

(though it never works out like that, you have to keep switching around subjects, need to refresh yourself of your notes before doing tutorials, and watching 2 hours of lectures online with no break isn't practical.

(you can of course skim read stuff or just stick to the lecture notes to answer tutorial questions but I am basing it on what they are asking us to do)

Very many courses expect 40 hours a week. Definitely science ones.

Yes, definitely PresentingPercy

oh yes, they do. I suppose lab based ones are more disciplined. you are in the labs from 9-6 every day and then mostly done with your studying (to some extent).

Whereas reading in ones own time, you have to be very disciplined yourself to sit down at 9am and work until 6. Most students are not that good, hence the late nights/weekends to catch up. Heck, I am posting on mumsnet between watching Equity videos!

you are in the labs from 9-6 every day and then mostly done with your studying (to some extent)

No, that's not the case burnoutbabe
Pre-covid DD had several hours a week lab practicals, plus preparing for them and writing them up, plus lectures, plus seminars. Then on top of that there are assignments, other self study and revision for the many tests she has to take, and for exams. She is studying biomedical sciences.

I agree that humanities subjects probably do require more self discipline as they have fewer contact hours.

And of course it’s that self discipline along with attention to “soft” skills that makes a student successful. The idea that university life should be all work and no play doesn’t acknowledge a need to develop the whole person.