BA Law and legal practice or the traditional BA (hons) Law LLB route?

[Coughanddrop]

If anyone can help us decide the best route for DS to take we’d be grateful.

He is keen to become a solicitor so was naturally looking at the BA honours degree in Law LLB. He is applying to Cardiff, Swansea, Aberystwyth and Winchester.

He has since found the following course run by Trinity College St David’s - BA Law and Legal Practice.

www.uwtsd.ac.uk/ba-law-legal-practice/

Which will allow him to qualify as a solicitor after sitting the SQE exams.

Can anyone advise if there are any pitfalls by not doing the LLB honours course? Will the BA without honours be a degree that less positively looked upon? If he takes that will it still open doors to other opportunities like work in HR, civil service etc or will that limit him to only becoming a solicitor?

If anyone has any input I’d love to hear it!

I don’t think the sqe will make any difference, there will be the same amount of jobs available. And the same onerous route in getting them, and the same candidates will still get them. Junior lawyer. Trainee lawyer, call it what you will, it’s irrelevant, it will still be the same amount of jobs available.

I think most people who have either done it or have kids who have done it, would urge any parent to think carefully when advising a child here.

Law is without a shadow of a doubt one of the hardest degrees and field to gain entry to practice in.

The difference here is the ops son hasn’t got the best grades (sorry op, they are good, but generally not at a level required to study law at a well ranked uni) the subjects picked are not ideal with both law and re in there (they would be fine if he was looking at A or a stars) and he only wants to do high st conveyancing. It’s a shit tonne of work snd struggle to come out a conveyancer. There is a Much easier routes in to that. Without the debt.

The new system will not accept any paralegal work however. It will need a solicitor to sign off that it is to a high standard, like a training contract in a sense so I am not sure most paralegals will be able to use their work to be counted/qualified over.

On the honours degrees we joke my non lawyer son's third class honours degree (quite hard to get a 3rd these days really....) at least was honours, rather than pass so there are some below him. I now someone who did so badly in his degree he got a pass not even 3rd class honours.

I do think lots of Law students can sit back and think their very high grade A levels and degrees from very good universities are good enough to secure the job you want. It’s worth bearing in mind that often more is needed. So my advice is to start on the cv very early.

In no particular order, in addition to her A levels, degree, law conversion and qualification as a barrister, DD volunteered for the National Trust, was a head of house at school, spent time doing work experience at a solicitors in the area of law she wanted, spent numerous hours volunteering for the CAB which included family finance tutoring and legal advice, was a first contact for abused women for a charity, chaired her university faculty ball, chaired a MFL society, did pro bono work. Had 10 mini pupillages, worked hard and played hard. Has a great personality and is interested in lots of things so can keep a conversation going.

She’s not academically brilliant. However she juggled a lot as well as studying and ended up with a very good cv in order to make her application stand out. Just sitting back doesn’t get you where you want to be unless you are very lucky.

@WhatWillSantaBring

It depends what sort of lawyer he wants to be - if he's after a job with a big London or national firm doing work for major corporate organisations (whether that's M&A, or commercial property, or big litigation work) then go to the best uni he can, and hope he can get sponsored. I'd only recommend pursuing this path if he's really bright and hard-working. Note that he doesn't need to do an LLB - he can do any degree he wants, though it'll add a year to his training.

If he's not as strong academically, or if he wants to become a high street solicitor (working for individuals, whether that's doing small business work, conveyancing, litigation or criminal work) then yes, there are other, cheaper options that will get him up and working sooner. But there is no way "up" to the big leagues if you start down this path, whereas you can go "down" if you decide that big law firms are not what you want.

(Note: I don't mean any disrespect to high street solicitors it's a reference to the size of work done, rather than the importance of it).

As other posters have said, big national law firms will often arrange vacation schemes etc, but start off doing work experience for your local firms (if you can) and go to open days, as the vac schemes are even more competitive than the training contracts.

As someone said to me, you have to really educate yourself on what it means to be a lawyer, and the different types of law, and what sort of work they do in order to get a place at a large firm. Which is, sadly, one of the reasons why it's still so much easier for those with the right connections to get a job.

I actually disagree that there's no path up and there's a lot of lawyers working in the gap between 'high street only dealing with individuals' and 'national firms'. It's a hard slog but I have several colleagues who have worked their way up, including one to magic circle. Not from true high street admittedly but from small (one or two office) regionals.

That said, he should get the most respected degree he can.

@Nomaigai if you are 40 plus the likelihood is that those colleagues came through the profession in a completely different era. In my view the rot set in when the profession opened up the postgrad course to a large number of establishments. When I graduated (91) there were only about 6 or 7 places to study the Law Society Finals as they were called then . This created a natural limit on numbers coming into the profession. Not long after that every half cocked polytechnic was allowed to offer the course (plus some new providers set up for the purpose). Thus leading to way too many graduates with qualifications for too few jobs.

Law is without a shadow of a doubt one of the hardest degrees and field to gain entry to practice in

I'm just lurking out of interest as I know so many students doing law degrees, and not all of them are at prestigious universities. I believe it is one of the most popular degree courses these days.

Do so many students do law becasue they don't know what they want to do, but want the university experience and letters after their name, or do they have unrealistic aspirations, or are they advised badly?

All of the above!

My brother is now a relatively successfully lawyer having fucked up his first degree and graduated with an ordinary despite doing an honours year (he also didn't tell my parents until graduation day..... )

His advice having asked for it recently for a friends child:
Go to the best University possible.
Work hard (ie do what I say not what I do....)
Scope out internships etc.
Remember law is a bit of a village so try to network form an early point - holiday jobs/ internships can really help down the line.

Lots of people get training contracts from paralegal jobs post graduation. Don't be proud.

He worked in one of the govt. legal depts as student and the contacts he made there were useful in the early part of his career and helped him get into the Diploma of Legal Practice.

[quote VanCleefArpels]@Nomaigai if you are 40 plus the likelihood is that those colleagues came through the profession in a completely different era. In my view the rot set in when the profession opened up the postgrad course to a large number of establishments. When I graduated (91) there were only about 6 or 7 places to study the Law Society Finals as they were called then . This created a natural limit on numbers coming into the profession. Not long after that every half cocked polytechnic was allowed to offer the course (plus some new providers set up for the purpose). Thus leading to way too many graduates with qualifications for too few jobs.[/quote]
I happen to be 40 plus but I'm also a career changer so I am fully aware of how competitive it is now.

There is routinely trading up and trading down on qualification (as was!) and during a career. I agree you're not going to immediately get a job post university in a magic circle firm if you don't have a strong degree and it may make it more difficult to get your foot in the door at the beginning. The first step is the issue. After you have that in my experience plenty of people 'upgrade' the firm they work for. I admit most of the group I'm talking about are in their 40s but that's because it does take time - it's several job moves over several years. You don't go from regional straight to silver circle - it's small regional, bigger regional, national, silver circle and then (but I agree rare), magic circle. Firms want to hire good people, who work hard. Once you've been qualified a few years, no one cares where you went to university or what you a levels are. There is no reason someone couldn't start in a small commercial property firm, for example, and end up as a real estate partner in an international firm if are a hard worker and capable.

@Nomaigai I agree. I'm over 40 (just) and my friend is in exactly the position you described. In fact I wondered if it was her you were talking about! She is the hardest working person I know, and it takes a sacrifice to get there. But it's possible.

I often read on law threads that there is an assumption that all law graduates want to work for a prestigious law firm in London.

Surely, the reality is not the case?

I am doing law at a Russell group as a second degree. I am doing it as it's an interesting degree and very glad I don't need to also apply for a job in law afterwards.

Everyone is so competitive, volunteers for many legal advice clinics and constantly applying for jobs /schemes. The law fair i attended previous year was a bear pit of keen ness! (Pity it doesn't extend to spreading in tutorials)

Plenty are going to do masters to get more on their cv (more cost) then do the exams at own cost as they have come this far.

It does seem super competitive. And most don't succeed or end up spending tons on courses. I do enjoy the course though, luckily I am interested in the subject (and what 18 year olds is interested in land law / rules around mortgages) and can read fast.

Do the degree for its own merits and go to as good a place you can (which applies to anyone wanting to get into most graduate schemes)

@Ginfordinner

I often read on law threads that there is an assumption that all law graduates want to work for a prestigious law firm in London.

Surely, the reality is not the case?

I think many want to do corporate law. It’s where the big money is. But there is very very few jobs available. In reality they then start to go for high st, and to get anything they can, before picking another career.

However the ops son only wants to do high st conveyancing at this stage, and you certainly don’t need a law degree for that. But having a degree under his belt would serve him well. Conveyancing isn’t highly paid or exciting. A degree gives him other options

If I was advising him id look to do an English degree. He can then do a conversion course if he still wants to do law.

I agree it's about the money. Not everyone wants to work for a London commercial law firm (and certainly not everyone wants to be a corporate lawyer) but the reality is that some areas of law are poorly paid and still high stress. Conveyancing for example sounds horrific from people I've spoken to about it. It's hard to make more than 30k long term, and you're dealing with 100s of case files for demanding clients who all want their work done yesterday and think they're paying a lot of money for it. Equally, most family lawyers are paid (relatively) little for a high stress job and (if you do care proceedings) very distressing work. Very few family lawyers are the high rolling super lawyers charging £500 an hour. I know there are wonderful people who don't care about the money, but long term it matters to a lot of us.

Ginfordinner there's a lemming thing going on at top unis which propels masses and masses of students towards City law and the Magic Circle firms in particular. For a few, that's the right decision; for many others who get a TC then an offer they realise that the life/ hours/ subject matter of that sort of law is not for them.

@goodbyestranger

Ginfordinner there's a lemming thing going on at top unis which propels masses and masses of students towards City law and the Magic Circle firms in particular. For a few, that's the right decision; for many others who get a TC then an offer they realise that the life/ hours/ subject matter of that sort of law is not for them.

So few of them get it though, it’s a tiny percentage, and yes it’s a lot of work. My daughter as said is one of them. For her, it’s right,

However the ops son is not looking for this, so it’s moot.

Thank you for answering my questions. As I said I really don't have any right to be on this thread, but I have two close friends with DC studying law (at RG universities), and know of several others studying law at less prestigious universities.

@Coughanddrop

Well after a long chat it appears that he’s also open to other careers, he hasn’t ruled out teaching, law, HR etc. He would want to do conveyancing if he became a solicitor and he’s a bit of a home bird hence the choice of unis. He wouldn’t want to move to London and would be happy in a high street practice. He is drawn to law as he loves the subject, he’s very engaged and enthused by his lecturer. He got AAC as AS level with Law being one of the A subject. He’s predicted around BBB but with a bit of push could get A’s in at least one of the subjects. So, it seems that it may be better for him to take an LLB course if he can get on one. I’ve told him competitive it is but he not worried, he’ll switch to another career path if needs be.

Oh the confidence of youth!

He doesn't sound ambitious or 'hungry', OP, which will be a barrier IMO.

I’m the OP and have name changed (as I do regularly). DS has read the thread right through, gone back to the drawing board and is now looking at Journalism degrees instead.

Thanks for all your input, I’m just hoping he manages to finally find something that fits the bill, time is running out. I’ve told him to seriously think about a year out and find a job so he can mature a bit more and be sure but he’s very keen to go to uni this year, he sees any gap as a waste of time.

To be honest unless he has a firm plan I also agree with him. Unis also ask why you took a year out and how you used the time.

Journalism seems a great idea.

No!!! Be careful about a first degree in Journalism. Look at where top journalists have studied and what they have studied. Journalism is usually the Masters after another subject. He really needs to think about careers because journalism is very difficult now because every Tom, Dick and Harry can publish articles. Local newspapers are dead in the water. Getting work from the nationals or on tv is hard! Ultra hard.

He would really be better off doing a degree in a recognised academic subject (Law is perfectly acceptable) and then go into HR. There are more chances of him getting this type of work if he’s RG educated. Law is good prep for this. Also think about local government work and the civil service. NHS admin is a big employer too. All of whom take young people with generalist degrees. He should stop looking at precise jobs and think about what he might like 2 years into his degree when he will have had careers fairs and met other students. His world will have opened up a bit.

@PresentingPercy

No!!! Be careful about a first degree in Journalism. Look at where top journalists have studied and what they have studied. Journalism is usually the Masters after another subject. He really needs to think about careers because journalism is very difficult now because every Tom, Dick and Harry can publish articles. Local newspapers are dead in the water. Getting work from the nationals or on tv is hard! Ultra hard.

He would really be better off doing a degree in a recognised academic subject (Law is perfectly acceptable) and then go into HR. There are more chances of him getting this type of work if he’s RG educated. Law is good prep for this. Also think about local government work and the civil service. NHS admin is a big employer too. All of whom take young people with generalist degrees. He should stop looking at precise jobs and think about what he might like 2 years into his degree when he will have had careers fairs and met other students. His world will have opened up a bit.

As said, I’d personally suggest English. I get what you are saying about journalism degree, so I was wrong there.

But law is a very academic degree and he is not that academic. I could be wrong but I don’t think he wants to be sitting literally reading thousands of pages weekly and in the library at midnight.

He could do an English degree, then a post grad course, either law conversion, or journalism, or even move to teacher training, or hr , I think maybe it gives him more options, as he’s not quite sure what he wants to do yet. Which isn’t unusual.

If a student doesn’t like reading, an English degree is not the best choice!

Social sciences offer an interesting degree course, able to be tailored to areas of interest, good transferable skills that employers like. So things like Geography, Sociology, Criminology, Psychology

Be careful with Sociology and criminology. Law beats them from an employers perspective quite often. Criminology is often viewed as taken by people who cannot get on a law course. Sociology offers can be low so you can aim higher for university but job prospects can be compromised.

However not all law students have to work like stink. Plenty do have a good time. English requires lots of reading too. Lots!

I think he needs to look at the law courses and understand what they are teaching. Thousands and thousands of students get law degrees every year and not all have burned the midnight oil to get a 2:1.

As he’s not doing Geography A level I’m not sure that’s a viable shout. If he enjoys Law, give it a go. He really must look at the contents of a law degree and decide if he can do it and understands the demands of it.

Is this for 2021 start date? If so, it’s very rushed.

At Swansea he could look at Business management . They don’t require maths A level. He could try for a sandwich course. They do marketing too and politics and international relations might be worth looking at. I would definitely look for a course with a year in industry as they often lead to employment and that, in the future, could be gold dust.