Medicine 2022 entry - How difficult is it really? *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[notmedicmum]

I couldn't find a thread for 2022 entrants to medicine - maybe I didn't look hard enough! DD is in Year 12 and has wanted to do medicine since Year 10. It's only this year that we realise the enormity of actually getting a place. Not only do you have to have brilliant grades, you must also have done work experience, volunteered (both difficult in the current situation), got excellent BMAT/UCAT scores. Oh, and you also must have cycled from Land's End to John O'Groats to raise money for charity or climbed Kilimanjaro or won the Nobel Peace prize or found a cure for cancer (joking about the last two). How competitive is it REALLY? I'm not sure about the value of the last apart from being used as a selection tool as the unis get so many qualified applicants - and showing enterprise and drive. Apparently this sort of thing is even more important this year as getting work experience is very hard this year. How does climbing a mountain make you a better doctor anyway? And what can normal students do to improve their chances of success??

NHS Scotland is struggling to recruit because English kids who go to uni in Scotland go home after and Scottish kids who go to school in England tend to stay down there after. Med applicants are up 21% and there is pressure from above to limit RUK places.

LaLaFlottes my scepticism was directed at the quaint notion that all doctors emerging from all UK medical schools are excellent, when they're manifestly not - please don't be unnerved!

Which are your DD's three choices?

@goodbyestranger her choices are StAndrews, Sheffield and UEA - she is still waiting to hear from Leicester

I think you'll find all medical schools provide an excellent education and produce excellent doctors.

All medical schools should produce ‘safe doctors’ at entry FYI, no more, no less. That training continues after, again with the principle of safeness. Each doctor will have personal qualities. They may develop these more or less independently of their medical school or with help from opportunities given by their medical school. Oxford and Cambridge provide more practice at certain aspects of a medical career by the style of their preclinical education.

@goodbyestranger

I think he was born and bred in Nottingham wasn't he?

"Early life Van-Tam was born and grew up in Boston, Lincolnshire.[6] He is partially of Vietnamese descent.[7] He attended Boston Grammar School where his father, Paul Nguyen Van-Tam, was a teacher of mathematics.[8] He graduated in medicine from the University of Nottingham in 1987.[4] He was awarded bachelor's degrees in medical sciences (BMedSci (Hons)) in 1985 and in medicine and surgery (MBBS) in 1987.[9][10] He was awarded a doctorate of medicine DM for a thesis on epidemiology in 2001. His other qualifications include Fellowships of the Faculty of Public Health FFPH, the Royal College of Pathologists FRCPath and the Faculty of Pharmaceutical Medicine Hon FFPM. He is also a Fellow of the Royal Society of Public Health FRSPH and of the Royal Society of Biology FRSB.[11]"

He is apparently still an avid support of his hometown football team, hence the football analogies. Old school friends of mine who now live in Lincolnshire went to a vaccination centre in Boston yesterday and found themselves being jabbed by him.

LaLa, I think StA is the outlier. She should decided first whether she wants this or not. Personally I think that StA and a full University experience for three years followed by a London teaching hospital for clinical sounds great. DD did not.

If StA is ruled out a lot comes down to student experience, places you want to live etc. I would look also at the hospitals used for training. Is it a good mix (urban rural, large small). And then at the specialisms. What intercalation options are offered. Is the hospital known for being a centre of excellence in any area (I don't know the terminology.) Birmingham, say, are big on public health, so good if you want to be a GP. Bristol has a lot of childhood studies, so good for future paediatricians. St Georges Tooting has a major trauma centre.

Note also StA is six years, the others presumably are five. Limiting the time spent as a student is important for some.

@LaLaFlottes, @Needmoresleep I think Lala's question was a concern after an elitist and untrue comment.

I think Sleep meant that St A is the outlier in terms of choosing between 4 where 1 will be a very different experience from the others, not in terms of quality of teaching.

All medicine degrees are equal within the NHS. It is true that writing weekly essays at Oxbridge will decrease the learning curve if you want to do research after graduating, but a mature student will pick up the skills quickly enough as a post graduate. On the other hand there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that Oxbridge medics are weaker in other, practical, skills when they get to a hospital. I have heard that Swindon find that on the whole Bristol students are better prepared than Oxford students for dealing with patients.

The NHS system is blind to where you got the qualification, the important thing is how you were placed in your cohort.

Whatever prejudiced people say, it is a FACT that the GMC oversees all medical degrees and whilst individuals in each medical school will vary, different medical schools will suit different students but ALL ARE EQUAL when getting FY1 posts.

Monkey2001 perhaps read my response before asserting that what I said was untrue.

It's demonstrably not the case that all doctors are excellent, as mumsneedwine claimed. Hers was the untrue statement whereas mine (that not all doctors are excellent) is very easy to evidence.

I explained this to LaLaFlottes.

Obviously your point about elitism is irrelevant.

Yes that's what I meant. StA will offer a different experience to many English medical schools. Three years of academic study on a small campus, then three years of clinical training at a English medical school. Perhaps for some, but not for everyone. I think it sounds great. DD didn't. I think that is the first decision your DD needs to make. If she decides against it is a simple choice between between the other two.,

I agree with Sendsummer. The range within a medical school is wide. Some are clearly going to make very good doctors, others less so. And there are all sorts of career paths anyway. DD says that some of the very best in her year came through the additional foundation (if that's what it is called) year. They may not have had great grades at A level, but have more than caught up since.

@goodbyestranger

I think you'll find all medical schools provide an excellent education and produce excellent doctors.

If only this were true!

It is true. All medical schools provide an excellent education and will produce excellent doctors, but all will also produce some who are not.

Monkey2001 thank you for conceding the point that not all doctors emerging from all UK medical schools are excellent.

I'll take it despite the slight lack of grace :)

@goodbyestranger

Monkey2001 thank you for conceding the point that not all doctors emerging from all UK medical schools are excellent.

I'll take it despite the slight lack of grace :)

I have not conceded anything! I was saying that the statement you claimed was untrue is actually true.

To be clear, your statement was absolutely NOT true

Monkey calm down with all the capitals and bolding.

You have indeed conceded the point that not all doctors emerging form all UK medicals schools are universally excellent:

All medical schools provide an excellent education and will produce excellent doctors, but all will also produce some who are not.

That is a very clear concession, on any objective reading of what you wrote.

Picking up the other point though, about the excellence of all UK medical schools, I would think that would be stretching a point too. Do all UK medical schools always, without fail, get credited with an excellence badge? Are they not also ranked independently for their quality of education? I only pick up the point because you're making quite a noise about it but seriously, it's hard to see how every single medical school in the country is excellent at all times. Some will be adequate, some good, some very good, some excellent. The same as any educational establishment.

NB to denotes a quote I would usually bold but in this instance I chose not to bold, because of all of Monkey's bolding, whereas in fact she didn't bold this particular statement.

*from

Come ON people

What a pity that year after year after year the medicine application support threads descend in to sniping and mud-slinging between posters whose dc are not even applying to medicine this year

Yes, it can be helpful to point out that there are big differences between med schools and that different courses will suit different people. Yes, I hope it can be helpful to share our own dc's experiences of the courses they are already on.

But how on earth does the now annual ritual of dissing each other's courses and trying to prove that some courses are better than others actually help the dc connected to this current thread here?

Please can we shelve the acrimony and personal crusades and get back to offering the support and advice that posters actually request ?

It happens every time I'm afraid. Hopefully if we ignore silly remarks they will stop. Don't feed the drama 😊.
For those looking to apply this year there are some fantastic on line work experience programs - I'll post them up later. Students found them very useful for interviews.

Agree that the rudeness is uncalled for, also the silly hissing reaction from a small number of voluble posters each time someone (as here, sandybayley) mentions that their DC is applying to Oxford or Cambridge Without that reaction, there would be no need to provide balance. As mumsneedwine correctly says, that's when I tend to bob up - other than that, I simply read to see how things are going.

Cross post.

Backseatmedmum I would say that these threads are for support but also info/ correcting poor info from a position of knowledge.

@goodbyestranger

Monkey calm down with all the capitals and bolding.

You have indeed conceded the point that not all doctors emerging form all UK medicals schools are universally excellent:

All medical schools provide an excellent education and will produce excellent doctors, but all will also produce some who are not.

That is a very clear concession, on any objective reading of what you wrote.

Picking up the other point though, about the excellence of all UK medical schools, I would think that would be stretching a point too. Do all UK medical schools always, without fail, get credited with an excellence badge? Are they not also ranked independently for their quality of education? I only pick up the point because you're making quite a noise about it but seriously, it's hard to see how every single medical school in the country is excellent at all times. Some will be adequate, some good, some very good, some excellent. The same as any educational establishment.

My final one on this, I agree that sniping is not at all helpful and nobody should be undermining anybody's choices, just helping to provide accurate, objective information on which to make decisions.

Both @mumsneedwine and I are saying that:

• ALL medical schools produce excellent doctors

I think we would both agree that:

• ALL medical schools produce some doctors who are not excellent

Different courses will appeal to different students, but it is a mistake to believe that traditional courses are superior to integrated courses, just as most people would agree that apples are not intrinsically better than bananas.

Getting correct up to date information is very important. In fact it's vital. Medical schools change their courses and admissions procedures a lot so up to date knowledge is so important. Personal preference as to the ranking of courses is not helpful as everyone looks for different things. In the end the GMC will ensure all qualifying doctors are capable of doing the job.
Ensure your DC know the selection procedures as getting the interviews is the first hurdle. Well after the dreaded UCAT/BMAT.

www.theaspiringmedics.co.uk/online-work-experience

www.themedicportal.com/blog/bsms-virtual-work-experience-all-you-need-to-know/

Think Kings did one this year.

Monkey we're still in agreement: not all doctors coming out of UK medical schools are excellent! Exactly what I said. It's a shame that some are downright bad, never mind not excellent.

mumsneedwine of course personal preferences will vary and some students are limited as to their choice, because of grades, even if they would personally prefer a high tariff uni. But I think there are bodies which like to rank med schools not just in the UK but around the world, so you might need a word in their ear too :)