Medicine 2022 entry - How difficult is it really? *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[notmedicmum]

I couldn't find a thread for 2022 entrants to medicine - maybe I didn't look hard enough! DD is in Year 12 and has wanted to do medicine since Year 10. It's only this year that we realise the enormity of actually getting a place. Not only do you have to have brilliant grades, you must also have done work experience, volunteered (both difficult in the current situation), got excellent BMAT/UCAT scores. Oh, and you also must have cycled from Land's End to John O'Groats to raise money for charity or climbed Kilimanjaro or won the Nobel Peace prize or found a cure for cancer (joking about the last two). How competitive is it REALLY? I'm not sure about the value of the last apart from being used as a selection tool as the unis get so many qualified applicants - and showing enterprise and drive. Apparently this sort of thing is even more important this year as getting work experience is very hard this year. How does climbing a mountain make you a better doctor anyway? And what can normal students do to improve their chances of success??

Van Tam is a Nottingham alumni. He's done OK for himself. He's a professor there too. I believe the football analogies are quite common.

But I entirely agree with 'each to their own'. Anyhow the fact remains that most med school applicants whistle themselves out from being in the frame for Oxford at GCSE, with less than pretty much perfect grades.

Poor old VanTam. Not him being wheeled out again!

I think he was born and bred in Nottingham wasn't he?

@goodbyestranger because as soon as I mention that Oxbridge isn't a perfect fit for everyone you appear.
Anyway. Apply where your stats fit and good luck to everyone. It's been incredibly tough this year. We had 17 applicants from our little comp and it's been bumpy. But amazingly everyone has at least one offer (including one from Oxford). Strategic applying was key. BMAT resits have now come through which has helped (not normally resist but due to technical issues some students could this year).

I read the threads. I have a DS who graduated a couple of years ago from Oxford and is now working in a London hospital. I tend not to comment until the silly annual dissing of Oxford thing happens. For a DC such as sandybayley's, Oxford sounds an excellent fit. She has the advantage of a brother there reading a challenging science degree, so can hear all the myriad disadvantages from him, if he thinks they exist.

Thanks for the advice everyone. It is very much appreciated. Lots to think about.

DD is very lucky to be in a good position with strong GCSEs and likely a very good predicted IB score. I suspect she'll do well at UCAT and BMAT but we'll have to wait and see.

She's very fortunate to be at a very high performing school which provides good advice in medical applications. Their experience is that students from the school with very strong applications just don't seem to get offers at Edinburgh. It's not entirely clear why that is the case as they do very well elsewhere. Hence the advice to consider other universities.

She likes the academic start of Oxford and knows the city well as DS1 is there.

sandybayley that was the same for students at our school (grammar, high performing) with Bristol until a few years ago and then something changed. Now Bristol can't seem to get enough of our students!

Edinburgh is fab though sandybayley. Given her strong record, surely two risky med schools which she'd really like to go for is worth the gamble? DS had what I assume is a similar profile to your own DD (flawless grades, very active on the extra curricular front etc) and didn't bother with the UCAT ( which caused a certain amount of shock, horror and indeed scolding on these threads :)). She's in a strong position; she should allow herself the luxury of choice on the back of that.

Sandy, the same was true with my daughter's school but for them it was Bristol. DD was the first to be accepted in a decade. She was only "allowed" to apply as she was not having a punt at Oxbridge. She got a place then there has been at least one successful applicant every year since.

I would largely agree with Stranger, except I would add UCL and Imperial, the latter two having the advantage of longer terms albeit with a different student experience. DD's experience is that there is a much stronger academic focus in London, which she is enjoying. That said she also enjoyed the more vocational approach that Bristol offer, and in this weird pandemic year is reaping the benefits in terms of the practical, teamworking, communication and reliance skills she has acquired. Generally medicine does not require the ability to think conceptually in the way some other STEM subjects do. Instead there are a lot of facts to learn, as well as the skills required in a public facing role. DD is really enjoying her year out for the intellectual challenge, plus the research element is "cool". She feels that she has had the best of both worlds.

There is a real MN tendency to snipe. People go to Oxford because it suits them and Oxford think they will fit. In particular there seems to be a problem with Oxbridge and its supposed "prestige", along with problems with private schools, London and much more. Applicants should think about what suits them. Because what suits them is probably the place where they are most likely to be accepted and thrive.

Cross post with Stranger. Bristol used not to use either UCAT or BMAT, which is why DD could apply. They changed and their student profile has changed. Sitting from her lofty fourth year position she would say that her year are a stronger cohort. But she would say that wouldn't she.

So much sniping!

Exactly: what suits them is probably the place where they are most likely to be accepted and thrive.

Obviously some applicants have limited choices because of grades, but when the choice is wide open, as it is likely to be for applicants such as sandy's DD, my strong advice would be to apply wherever appeals most, even if that flies in the teeth of more 'sensible' and seemingly risk averse advice. Even the very top schools tend to err on the side of 'safe' advice, because they're very conscious that parents will sit on them hard if things don't work out - but this can limit very attractive and actually perfectly realistic options. These threads tend to play very, very safe too.

Again, very useful perspectives.

DD's school does indeed play it safe in terms of advice on selecting a good mix of choices to ensure at least one offer. Half if me does think she should be less risk adverse.

When I was at Edinburgh (many years ago) I remember a friend transferred onto medicine after a year of Biology. I'm sure that kind of thing doesn't happen anymore!

@Needmoresleep - you'll be pleased to know Bristol may get onto the list. I hate admitting it but DD is a lover of beautiful cities and that is a factor in her decision making. London is probably out though as she wants to leave her home town.

Bristol is a good choice, as the catchment ranges from very rural to very inner city, with two big hospitals in Bristol. DD has found that teaching tends to be as good in the smaller hospitals, where staff can go out of their way to include students. It is also nice that home is only a couple of hours away. Not too close, not too far. Bristol is always very oversubscribed, but is more predictable since they started rely heavily on UCAT. DD and most of her friends would not get in now.

Do look at what is allowed in terms of intercalation. Bristol is unusually good, others are not. A year back in London (or elsewhere) doing something academic can make a good change, and in DD's case allowed her to study the two subjects she was torn between when filling out her UCAS form. In this weird year, where medical training has been fragmented, it has been the best thing she could have done.

@sandybayley you are probably feeling overloaded with advice here, but it may be worth asking the school whether they are using current data in advising against Edinburgh. Up until 2019 they did not interview, it was all done on the PS and was somewhat opaque, so there may have been a bias towards non-selective or state schools. Last year they changed and now have a fairly transparent scoring system for shortlisting which does not include scoring the PS. They have not revealed how the academic element is scored but, as I said before, if your DD is predicted full marks in IB and gets a very good UCAT, it is not that risky. It is best to stay open minded until you know all your application stats.

As @Needmoresleep mentioned, Bristol changed in 2019 from heavily scoring PS (and maybe not using UCAT score?) to just using UCAT score. So schools should not really have been surprised that there was a change in which students were successful.

Monkey2001 the sea change at our school happened around ten years ago. With respect, the SLT had perfectly sound reason to be surprised.

Had it been a simple adjustment such as the one you mention, I think a relatively bright and experienced group of leaders could probably have figured out what was going on....

Don’t fall into the simplistic trap of saying that choosing to apply for medicine at Oxford or Cambridge is just about preference for a traditional science based 3 year preclinical.

Doctors graduating from Oxford or Cambridge carry the advantage throughout their career of extremely well honed skills in writing rapidly and cogently, backed up by well researched and understood material. Since time is at a premium when working as a doctor and writing documents is often required, that advantage should not be underestimated. It is even more useful for those with ambition to contribute beyond the standard job role let alone in international research.

The frequent tutorials led by academics also provide a huge amount of practice in grasping and communicating difficult concepts in science and clinical research.
Medical students should take all opportunities to learn how to think, not just assimilate and regurgitate information. At Oxford and Cambridge those opportunities are handed on a plate, a fantastic bonus for those with natural curiosity.

I think you'll find all medical schools provide an excellent education and produce excellent doctors.

I think you'll find all medical schools provide an excellent education and produce excellent doctors.

If only this were true!

This is precisely what my DC across all their various disciplines have said of Oxford: that it taught them to think.

No one is saying that any medical school does not provide an excellent education. However the type of education they provide is different.

DD is experiencing a second medical school. The culture is very different. She has already experienced a level of snobbishness from some students about Bristol that she would claim was unfair, not least because she believes she has developed skills that they are lacking. (Tact might be one!)

She would also say that the course is clearly more academic. According to the website 95% of her Department's returned research was judged either world-leading or internationally excellent in the last REF. And yes, she has come across, even if tangentially, one of the now-famous telly scientists. (Not JVT!)

Her mixed approach was the right one for her. Academic London schools are difficult for dyslexics and she needed a break, and an escape from essay writing. Four years on and she is really enjoying education, whilst being fully stretched, and discovering new skills and concepts. She feels she will have had the best of both worlds.

In part it might depend on the end point. Some DC will simply want to be "a doctor" and will not have researched adjacent medical careers. Others will know that their interest lies in, say, neuroscience or epidemiology, and have looked at the best route in. Is it via some branch of biomedical science or is it better to qualify as a doctor and then head for an interdisciplinary team.

DD is in the latter group and hesitated, and indeed continues to hesitate. She spoke to a few people before completing her UCAS form. One biomedical engineer urged her to consider his field. Medicine can be a production line. He saw fewer patients but worked with them closely and over the longer term. Doctors were car mechanics who fixed things. He was like the car designer who designed things. In contrast a Cambridge educated medical researcher in another field suggested it was important to qualify as doctor as in an interdisciplinary team, not least because they tended to be paid better but also because they potentially enjoyed better career flexibility.

Who knows where DD will end up. She may marry a crofter and become a GP in the Scottish Highlands. The thing is options are still on the table. There are quite a lot of PhD places available in her field which could be an option if she did decide to head that way after qualifying.

She may marry a crofter and become a GP in the Scottish Highlands.

Not so many crofters left to choose from Needmoresleep but she could regard a crofter as a bonus - I would say that our local GP in Scotland has one of the most interesting lives of the GPs I know: genuinely knowing the community and all the family members of each family etc. The medical provision in the islands is superb.

Less so the ferry provision.

@goodbyestranger your “if only this was true” comment has unnerved me a little. Do you really believe this to be the case and some medical schools do not provide an excellent education?

Are there any that you have experience of that do not?

It’s a genuine question - definitely not trying to antagonise or challenge! DD currently has 3 offers and is choosing where to go so I am interested.