Are Firsts the new 2:1?

[Cranmer]

Over the last 2 years we have had 6 nieces/nephews/God children and family friends graduating. Without exception, everyone of them has received a first. The courses range from nursing, graphic design to engineering and geography. The highest A level grade any of them achieved was a B and they all went to ex-poly type universities.

When I went to university back in 1994, there was 200 on my course and not a single First awarded. Are students just more able? Are 2:1s seen as good degrees still? Why are so many Firsts awarded now?

I hear you. I got 3x b a levels which felt good in 1993, and a2.2 from Russell group. These days would be unemployable

easier to get a 1st at a lower ranking uni, as less able candidates go there, so easier to be in the top 15% or so.

28% of students got a first in 2018, compared to 14% in 2008 and 7% in 1994. It doesn't make it meaningless or mean it's not an achievement - after all, 72% of students didn't get one - but it's hard not to conclude that it's quite a bit easier to get one now than it was (and that it was for me to get one in the mid-2000s than you in the mid-90s, @topcat2014).

@burnoutbabe

easier to get a 1st at a lower ranking uni, as less able candidates go there, so easier to be in the top 15% or so.

This isn't actually true - the university with the highest percentage of 1sts in 2018 was Imperial (44.7) and the university with the lowest percentage was Bath Spa (14.6). Both Oxford and Cambridge gave more than a third of their students 1sts.

It’s dependent on the subject and uni, but they are more common than decades before where no one really did.

My daughter has a first in law from a Russel group and it was a very small percentage who got them, I think about ten or fifteen percent. Law is a subject which awards the least though, maths the highest.

A quarter to a third sounds about right to me.

I'm with you. I graduated last year and everyone I know apart from one person got a first. They do seem to be extremely common.

To counter all of that, though, there is evidence that students do indeed work harder than they used to, that they are more motivated and that the wider range of available areas of study mean they tend to select more appropriate subjects.

My DS is still on for a Desmond just so you know they still exist. And my friends daughter just got a 2:1.

@burnoutbabe

easier to get a 1st at a lower ranking uni, as less able candidates go there, so easier to be in the top 15% or so.

This is wrong, it’s not on a bell curve it’s how you actually perform. So clearly not easier to get a first.

Logically your statement also doesn’t make sense, because it is low ability v low ability.

I graduated last year and everyone I know apart from one person got a first

Which uni and subject awarded every single student a first except one please?

Or the other way you could look at it:

Criterion referenced marking, rather than norm referenced marking

For most of the 20th century, undergrads were undermarked (I was taught at a time when a First was seen as a bit "vulgar")

Learning outcomes and marking criteria are explicit, so students know what to do to "get my First" and they are more prepared to do so

Or ... slightly in jest exhausted tutors get sick of the badgering, and the grade-grubbing, and the tears, and the threats (oh yes, the threats) and just hand out 70s like sweeties.

maths the highest.

Could that be because only those who are very able at maths do a maths degree?

I do wonder if there will be more firsts this year, as a lot of students have been give 'safety nets' below which their grades wouldn't fall. DS got a first, but just for his end of year exams, not his final degree.

Could that be because only those who are very able at maths do a maths degree?

Likely, I was also thinking it was less subjective than other degrees when it came to marking, but I’m not sure.

I think part of the issue is that universities haven't caught up with how much easier access to information is these days. There are similar essays set, as 20y ago, but the standard is going to be higher when you don't have to physically search through large tomes of journals in a reference library, to find someone else has the one you need, queue for photocopier etc.

I do think students work harder now, too. I graduated in 2008 and taught at a range of universities from 2011-2019, including my alma mater, and while standards did vary a lot I felt on average students did seem to be working harder. Anecdotally, my old college has also seen a fairly disastrous drop in bar takings... Students are also much more concerned about their future than my friends and I were (but then a lot of my friends got horrible shocks because they got graduate jobs in the city lined up, but as I said we graduated in the summer of 08...)

Lets absolutely. Microfiche was cutting edge when I was studying.
I'm often secretly delighted by how easy it is to get information now. I love it.

Would I be correct in thinking if more people go to university more people will know someone who gets a first?

Which is why I know very few people my age who got them (grads from ye olde times of yore in the 20th century) but my children’s friends certainly do have them, and deserve them.

I agree with @Piggywaspushed that students work harder now. In my day only exceptionally bright students, who also worked hard, got a first. It seemed to be changing even when I was there, the 1st years were more noticeable in the library when I was in my final year. Obviously we did not have the large student loans hanging over us but also I think it was not the done thing to be seen to work too hard in my day...

@Fanthorpe

Would I be correct in thinking if more people go to university more people will know someone who gets a first?

Which is why I know very few people my age who got them (grads from ye olde times of yore in the 20th century) but my children’s friends certainly do have them, and deserve them.

Well, that's true, but also more people would know someone who got a third and more people would know someone who failed, too. It's fairly clear that there has been an increase in the percentage getting firsts, and an even more dramatic drop in the percentage getting below a 2:1.

Thank you Hardbackwriter, of course.

Someone I know was stating with confidence that if they were doing their degree now they would have definitely got a First. I can say quite confidently that I would still have failed...

2 out of my class got firsts. Must have been about 40-50 in the year?

Those 2 were the ones permanently in the library, before lectures, and staying til midnight.

I used to joke that you could tell what grade someone was going to get fairly easily.

Always in the library- 1st
Often seen in the pub, but not in key revision weeks, and usually go from library to pub 2:1.
Always in the pub - 2:2

The majority got 2:1, about 10 or so 2:2. But my course was selective, you were admitted onto a general course, then they took the top applicants to specialise in second year.

Likely, I was also thinking it was less subjective than other degrees when it came to marking, but I’m not sure

When I was at university, 20+ years ago, this was definitely the case. Friends regularly got 90+% in maths assignments. Top marks in essay based assignments in other subjects were 75% max

I think it’s also much clearer what you need to do to get a first. Course handbooks clearly set out the marking criteria for each class etc, In my day it was all a bit of a mystery , I remember asking a tutor what I would need to do to improve my grade on an essay and he said that ‘was for me to find out’ ! Detailed feedback was rare and frankly a first was a mythical mark which was very rarely given and the implication was that you arrived as a first , that you had this rare talent like an Avenger!

The vast vast majority got 2:2s , in my subject more than half the year group ( results still posted outside on the wall ) got 2:2s, about another quarter got 2:1s , there was one first , a couple of thirds and a couple of pass degrees .

Same Peaseblossom. One first in my year (none the year before, one the year before that), a quarter got a 2.1, the rest first and a smattering of thirds. Nailed up on the wall in a glass box for everyone to see :)

No, the rest 2.2s :)