Are Firsts the new 2:1?

[Cranmer]

Over the last 2 years we have had 6 nieces/nephews/God children and family friends graduating. Without exception, everyone of them has received a first. The courses range from nursing, graphic design to engineering and geography. The highest A level grade any of them achieved was a B and they all went to ex-poly type universities.

When I went to university back in 1994, there was 200 on my course and not a single First awarded. Are students just more able? Are 2:1s seen as good degrees still? Why are so many Firsts awarded now?

Easier in some ways because the students' final grade is not a simple mean of all their previous marks and unis do everything possible to give the higher award (e.g. first if mean is 70+/first if most modules are 70+ even if mean is below/first if most final year modules are 70+ etc etc) because it influences the ridiculous rankings

I read the Times article and was surprised to hear that lower marks can be disregarded and a out rounding. It mentioned 68% sometimes being rounded to a first.

I graduated in 1992. No one got a first on my course. It was also not possible to get more than 75% for any essay. I got 59.5% in the end which was a 2.2. I did know someone who got 69.5% and got a 2.1. No rounding happening there!

I think there are other factors at play here. When I went to university, if they liked you, you could get in with EE at a level. I had a two E offer. Now the university and course demand aaa, but expects as. I never quite worked out why I got a 21 sometimes and a 22, or a 11 at others. Nobody ever enlightened me. I scraped a 21 in the end.

DS was taught what people were after in essays, exams and dissertations. He got onto a tough course, never once getting below A in any exam. His offer was aaa.

Of the 9 people in his college doing his course 2 got firsts - all would have got firsts on my course. There is no comparison in the standard of work produced.

I did Economics at LSE and DS did PPE at Oxford. He is considerably better than I was.

Arghhh the disregarding of low marks has stopped with many unis because students were strategically doing crap.

This thread seems to have turned into who can outbrag who.

My son is only 14 but he’s already saying he’s determined to get a first and beat what I got.

It's not worth working like crazy for a first. You work at your own pace and get one incidentally or it's healthier to forget about it. Obsessing about it is only going to wreck university life and probably won't hugely affect your life going forward, if you're ion that first / high 2.1 category anyhow.

@Ginfordinner I think the thread actually started as a bragging thread tbh.

@goodbyestranger

My son is only 14 but he’s already saying he’s determined to get a first and beat what I got.

It's not worth working like crazy for a first. You work at your own pace and get one incidentally or it's healthier to forget about it. Obsessing about it is only going to wreck university life and probably won't hugely affect your life going forward, if you're ion that first / high 2.1 category anyhow.

I agree...but it’s his life and he’ll live it as he chooses. He’s only 14 anyway, who knows how things will pan out!

DD has a 2.1 in law from a Russel group. Only 5% had firsts. It very much varies per subject. She worked very very hard to get her solid 2.1 and marvelled at those getting firsts. She said that she doesn't know what she could ever have done to get a first as feels she worked as hard as she could. However, other family members have found firsts more achievable in sciences.

My brother's uni had all sorts of permutations for getting your final degree classification, e.g. mean of all years, mean of final year, drop highest and lowest marks then average, apply different weightings to different parts of the course etc. and you chose whichever one gave you the best outcome. Seemed a bit like gaming the system to me

I think the universities should all be the same but it’s doubtful the university of blog demands as much from its students as Oxbridge does. So that’s another issue. Firsts from blog are a lower currency.

I think the universities should all be the same
Every time you post My0My I'm so pleased that you neither run universities or - as far as I can deduce from the evidence of your posts - actually work at one or know very much about how they work.

I would ensure they awarded degrees fairly though! The research clearly shows this is not the case and firsts cannot any longer be considered the gold standard. From any reasonable point of view that’s worrying. For the students more than anyone.

Instead those that do run the universities are continually found to be overpaid, reducing standards and taking money for poor quality degrees and getting bums on seats with few questions asked. So if you are so good, you need to read the reports about you a bit more often and take action. The biggest disgrace is that many dc are being let down and you simply don’t care.

If academics didn't care about their students and doing a good job, they wouldn't do what they do and soak up this level of criticism from people who know little about the job. Absolute crap .

What by the way do you suggest academics do about 'the people who run universities' (NOT academics) being overpaid, by the way?

Oooh er. DS graduated in quite a small subject (econometrics) and all nine got firsts. But then they colonised a room in the library and all supported each other and worked really hard. It would have been a pity if some external moderator decided that this could not happen.

In their case several of the courses would have been shared with other degrees, so the success was probably more down to the decision to put their heads down and to each to score highly within the cohort for each subject. Also in subjects that involve technical skills, I can see employers looking for those skills, putting more value on a first. So the pressure is on to get one.

You tend to get a wider distribution in quantitative subjects: more firsts, more thirds.

It was also not possible to get more than 75% for any essay. (And other similar posts.)

(a) Something seriously wrong with the marking guidelines.

(b) University remiss in not having comparable standards between subjects. If 70% is the threshold for a first it should not be practically impossible to achieve this in essay-based subjects while it is straightforward in subjects assessed by MCQ/short-answers.

(c) External examiners not doing their job.

For a sub forum where it seems practically everybody has a child going to study medicine at Oxbridge, it's also quite snipey about those who do well. Perhaps the HUGE cost of a degree has put a rocket up arses to actually make it worth the money. 20 years ago when it was free the added incentive wasn't there so I'm sure many who didn't get the higher classifications were perfectly capable but perhaps not as motivated with the almost 30k price tag hanging over their heads.

So, when one of your children return from uni with a first class are you going to think they had it easy or will you be more than happy to regale everybody here with their good degree?

@bottlebeer Of course, if said dc got their 1st from Oxbridge et al then it will be okay. Please get with the program.

Oh of course! Silly old me

Something I did find odd was that there were workshops you could attend which tutored students in how to achieve a 2:1. A 2:1 is great but why not tutor students on how to get a first? It was like it was unachievable and "we know you all want a 2:1".

Yes, the vast majority that I'm aware of got 2:1.

I scraped the first by the skin of my teeth due to a huge % in a semester 1 module and doing well in my dissertation. I certainly didn't get stellar grades all the way through but did end level 4 and 5, 1 and 2% away from 70%.

So yeah, that outlier grade clinched it for me and I'm eternally grateful it did. Sometimes there is an element of luck involved.

Another factor to consider for the upsurge of firsts,
I can’t quantify it but anecdotally more university students are receiving outside tutoring during their degree, not just international students seeking help to improve their writing in English.

Yes, I paid for additional help with statistics.

Maths is another language to me, I got extra help and it paid off.

But I went to uni to get a first.