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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

University 2020 :5: Results day approaching and beyond

983 replies

MillicentMartha · 24/05/2020 11:35

Old thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/3855474-University-2020-4-The-wait-for-grades-and-better-days-ahead?pg=40

Less than 3 months to go until we have a better idea what the future has in store for our DC. Let’s hope that even if most lectures are online that accommodation is open and they can move up, across or down to their university towns and start their student life.

We should have been in the middle of exams, instead we have this strange limbo of lockdown. It could have been worse, though.

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MillicentMartha · 16/06/2020 23:06

Gotta get the last word, though, haven’t you?

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goodbyestranger · 16/06/2020 23:09

Or rather, teachers have been told to be objective Railingsohno. Not quite the same as all teachers actually doing this whole thing utterly objectively. All teachers weren't born objective; no reason why they should suddenly become in May 2020 just because Ofqual says so, as it's bound to do (especially when Ofqual also tells them that no two students in a single subject in their school can possibly be equal).

Oneteen · 16/06/2020 23:09

@Railingsohno. I don't value one above the other though.. They are both A*... I just want both to pursue their given careers.. Eg the other student could have an offer from Bham rather than Oxbridge.. But both will move forward... Both will get degrees A levels will be irrelevant..

MillicentMartha · 16/06/2020 23:15

A levels aren’t irrelevant, though. As I said, 75% of students get a 2:1 or a first these days. A levels still distinguish candidates for jobs.

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goodbyestranger · 16/06/2020 23:19

They're not irrelevant Millicent but they're not that relevant either.

MillicentMartha · 16/06/2020 23:19

If Ofqual have to moderate a school, they need individual rankings so that their moderation affects students as fairly as possible. If 2 students are ranked the same, at the new cut off grade boundary, how should the decide which gets the A and which the A*? By the school’s ranking or randomly, or by alphabetical order? Which would be fairer? The pupil who got 1% more or the pupil whose name begins with A?

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MillicentMartha · 16/06/2020 23:21

Or in your example, the one who got 1% less but is going to Oxbridge?

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BackforGood · 16/06/2020 23:27

Thankyou @errorofjudgement, @Railingsohno, @MillicentMartha and @Oratory1.

You keep reading this stuff for long enough, you begin to wonder if you are somehow completely out on a limb. I'm not an A-level teacher, but, as I am on my 3rd dc doing through this, I've met a few (not counting friends who also happen to be teachers) and I know every single one of them to be people that would do their best for ALL their pupils, and not favour one over another because they have applied to one university over another or even to go to University against not going.

As someone aid upthread, information has all been submitted now, so perhaps this thread can return to being the friendly, supportive thread it once was ?

goodbyestranger · 16/06/2020 23:28

By the school's ranking Millicent, where the student who needs an A for his or her uni place is artificially/ subjectively ranked above the student of identical ability who only needs a B.

This is a bit circular.

Oneteen · 16/06/2020 23:31

@Railingsohno.. It could be any Uni Im just trying to make a flawed systems fairer and work for all rather than disadvantage one student due to historical results..

goodbyestranger · 16/06/2020 23:31

That was a cross post Millicent, on account of wiping the hob while typing.

goodbyestranger · 16/06/2020 23:33

BackforGood I think alternative views are still allowed on MN, provided there are no personal attacks.

Oneteen · 16/06/2020 23:39

@MillicentMartha.. Perhaps the student who needs the Oxbridge (or any other uni place) will actually turn the deficit of 1 percent to a positive of 5 percent after all they have everything to loose (equally they could fluff the exams)... There is lots of evidence that DC who don't need grades under perform... Its just subjective.. So a balanced decision to ensure no one looses out is the right thing to do...

Railingsohno · 16/06/2020 23:40

And actually @oneteen extrapolating your argument, where would you stop? The pupil that needs to get into Durham over the one that needs to get into Leeds, the one that wants to go to Newcastle over Leicester etc....

Why would it be OK to do it at the “top end” and not further down the grades? Or is it only OK to do it when it’s Oxbridge because it’s “special”? I feel a bit sick at your argument really. Think it through, where would you stop? That’s why it needs to be objective.

goodbyestranger · 16/06/2020 23:43

The greatest good argument is a reasonable one Railingsohno.

MillicentMartha · 16/06/2020 23:43

I will never agree with that sort of dishonest engineering, Oneteen.

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goodbyestranger · 16/06/2020 23:46

But you're not ranking students Millicent or having oversight of the rankings at your school, so it's hypothetical.

Railingsohno · 16/06/2020 23:48

@goodbyestranger

The greatest good argument is a reasonable one Railingsohno.
I’m not sure what you mean but actually I’m not really that interested, I can imagine. Luckily you are not responsible for setting grades for students and professional teachers are. You’re just being goady now, you’ve obviously had a bad day with your pesto pasta (we’ve all been there) so let’s just leave it there.
Oneteen · 17/06/2020 02:06

If we go back to predicted grades.. Only 16 percent of predicted school grades are correct...Six percent of Oxford offer holders miss their grades so 94 percent of the predicted grades for Oxford offer holders are met or higher... So I would have thought the schools could have more confidence that Oxford offer holders will meet their grades...are teachers aware of this...very doubtful judging by comments on this thread...

Dds school stated that they will award grades fairly... I can't see schools awarding grades morally
. Eg will the school who was awarded 99% A*B grades declare this year their grades will be less than 99 percent?

Oneteen · 17/06/2020 02:20

I forgot to add that I am very sad that several of you would be prepared to let an A stsr student be rejected from their Oxbridge offer because of a computer algorithm... Wow😭

JulesJules · 17/06/2020 07:45

That's two different things there though @Oneteen. The predicted grades for the application through Ucas are given after one year of the course and are the best grades the teachers think they could get. Not the same as the grades they have to come up with now, and have evidence for - most recent work, completed NEAs, mocks etc. so these should be a lot more accurate.

It's the ranking and moderation which worries me, and how much the school's previous results will affect this year.

enougha1ready · 17/06/2020 08:32

To be fair to goodbyestrsnger, I don’t think she’s arguing that schools ^^should be “protecting” Oxbridge grades.

She is simply saying the system is not perfect and teachers are human beings.

The whole concept of ranking every child in a subject is obviously imperfect as it is. Some degree of subjectivity has to creep in.

The only way to avoid teacher subjectivity is to have them all sit the same exam. Then its a score - simple as that.

Without exams, difficult decisions will have to be made. I think all teachers will want to give all students the benefit of the doubt, as far as possible. Why wouldn’t they?

If I can give the example of the school my DC is at (currently year 12) .... It’s a selective independent. Quite a few go to Oxbridge every year, but they don’t make a massive hoo haa out if it, nor do they publish Oxbridge numbers in the “leavers’ destinations” section on the website (well, no more than any other uni). They know full well, that courses vary widely - that getting into Oxbridge to study say, Classics or MFL, is probably less competitive than many, many courses at other unis. For instance, my DC is applying to Cambridge which requires A*AA, but then so does Exeter. Most medical degrees are a whole other ball game as well. So at this school, even though it’s very high in the Independent School league tables, they are just as likely to highlight someone who managed to get into RADA, or St Martins School of Art, or Manchester to study Aerospace Engineering, or Economics at LSE - or whatever - than someone who is doing History at Oxford.

However..., the fact remains that getting into Oxbridge is a different process. The UCAS form has to be done by the end of Sept. There is a supplementary personal statement (Cambs). There are the aptitude tests in the Autumn term. And of course the interviews. It’s not just a case of sending the UCAS form off and wait and see.

At a talk about Oxbridge applications last term, the Oxbridge Admissions teacher basically told them all (and parents) that if you don’t have at least two A* in your predicted grades, the school probably won’t support your application to Oxbridge. This is because, their data shows, that students who don’t have these predicted grades are usually not successful.

So in other words, the school sifts students out before they apply. Those who do apply, tend to get in.

So, how likely is it really that this school would, at the end of last summer, have predicted two A*s or more for a group of students; guided them with their personal statements and UCAS forms; watched them succeed in the aptitude tests and interviews and get those conditional offers.... Only to turn round in the May and say, “Oh no actually, well done and all that, but we’ve now changed our minds and we’re going to give you an A after all.”

Really? It would make a mockery of their whole assessment process, because if they didn’t think the students were easily capable of the grades, they shouldn’t have put them through the process in the first place.

So there is a difference potentially here. It’s not about should or shouldn’t. It’s just being realistic maybe?

thesunwillout · 17/06/2020 08:55

I just want pesto pasta now.

Hi, can we talk about mattress toppers, clothes airers and washing up liquid again 😁?

goodbyestranger · 17/06/2020 08:56

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, that the system isn't good and teachers are humans, but Railingsohno seems to be struggling with any mention of Oxbridge, which is curious for a teacher.

And the pesto was really good in fact. No more wild garlic left on the hill behind the house unfortunately but still really good nonetheless. I don't think pesto related psychology is required to work out why I might quarrel with some of things said!

Railingsohno · 17/06/2020 08:56

@thesunwillout

I just want pesto pasta now.

Hi, can we talk about mattress toppers, clothes airers and washing up liquid again 😁?

Grin