3 A Levels for medicine when everyone else is doing 4

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DS is at a well-known grammar where 4 A levels is the norm for medicine applicants. He’s done his EPQ and is doing 3 sciences & maths A level. He wants to drop physics. School (strong on Oxbridge) say “because his peers are doing 4, his doing 3 will be seen as a less competitive application”. He’s getting good BMAT scores in practise but who knows on the day? He isn’t applying to Cambridge where l know many have taken 4 A levels. More interested in the London med schools. He’s emailed and asked and they just quote the standard “3 A levels required”. He doesn’t know his predicted grades yet but it’s more the risk of missing an offer together with the extra work load of the 4th A level that is bothering him. If many of his peers at school are doing 4 and he does 3 will admission a Tutor think “hmm despite going to X School he’s only take 3 A levels..”. His school have a huge cohort of medicine applicants every year.

bpisok haha no absolutely not superior in the slightest, whatever the quickly and badly typed written word suggests.Very far from it - as everyone who knows me knows. It's true that I'm not very patient with certain types of people though (in real life too; those with the characteristics mentioned above). Perhaps I should try to be a bit more so - I'll have to curb the instinctive grrrr. It might be quite a long work in progress!

Indicative you've put two and two together, come up with about 106, then said I've posted all the things you've said, which I most certainly haven't (since not all are correct). I think you'd be better off either ignoring my posts or at the very least stepping back.

mumsneedwine healthy debate is obviously good and no doubt what most of us are here for. That debate was distinctly unhealthy and unpleasant. Unnecessarily so.
My advice to go back to school and challenge the reasoning of the Ho6 still stands. What I do know is that this has been the advice given for a long time at our own school for medics aiming for the top unis (or ones with more competitive entry if you prefer), and for good reason. Whether than approach still holds good in the light of the new A levels is another matter - policies aren't immutable. But to advise an applicant from a high achieving school who is aiming for Imperial/ UCL that he will only need to reach the same threshold for those unis as for the unis taking much lower academics is just not correct. I'm glad to say that more is expected from applicants from higher achieving schools: after all, if you were to flip that on its head then the disadvantage to educationally disadvantaged DC would make things even less fair than they already are.
And then there was the segue into how all doctors are the same. Well, any clin neg lawyer will laugh (not a good way, but with derision) if you try that one out. And the understanding of the medical science is clearly essential. However super lovely a doctor is, if they're not smart enough to apply the up to date science logically and correctly, then you've got a problem. Yes they need to listen, no they don't need to be kind (better if they are, but not critical), but neither of those are much good without an intelligent brain applying the correct science. And it's painfully clear that not all doctors are bright. After seven high risk pregnancies in three different countries with (unfortunately) colourful variety in terms of medical emergencies, I've come across a vast number of doctors. That's without the current thing which has already had one blip in terms of clinical error but I'm now in more reliable hands. In terms of the babies, one clinician was sacked pretty much on the spot; another was lucky not to have a fatality on her hands (DC7 - life saved by me taking matters into my own hands in the delivery room, which I was in on my own). And then there have been the fantastic doctors most memorably one at the JR who trained there also then returned (sorry!).So to the poster who said I know very little about this stuff oh yes I do. More than I'd like to, and that's without the legal angle from an earlier life.

I'm glad to say that more is expected from applicants from higher achieving schools:

No it's not. At least not in terms of university admissions.

Tell Oxbridge interviewers that titchy, for starters. I prefer horses mouth on the whole.

It's safer!

Anyhow I'll leave you to it - lawn mowing calls after four weeks in Scotland with family.... big time.

Our school is very clear that no course in any university needs 4 A levels. The only children who are permitted to take 4 are those who are taking maths and want to do further maths. There are no exceptions to this rule. Funny how they had 14 or 15 children going to Oxbridge, 6 to medicine and 3 to study to be vets.

You do know Medicine Admissions tutors are on here don't you? They're the horses mouth as far as I'm concerned.

Goodbye ‘I’ll leave you to it’

1. There would be a lot more HE threads that would have stayed on topic if you had.

1. Bet you can’t.

My understanding is that universities generally publish their selection criteria, and have to show that these criteria are fairly applied to all applicants. That there are variations for contextual applicants - where the definition of ‘contextual’ and the nature of the variations are declared for that institution. Some - like Nottingham - points score each candidates academic achievements, entrance test marks etc. Others check to see that a boundary has been met in terms of GCSEs/predicted grades, then rank and select on entrance test scores. Candidates are then invited to interview and selected either solely on interview score, or by adding this to their pre interview scores.

Am I wrong?

Where in this does ‘well I’d expect a student from Bloggs Sixth Form to be doing four A levels even though our criteria started that we require three’ fit?

Blimey. Seven high risk pregnancies. You are either very brave or completely bonkers

Despite goodbye's protestations and peculiar personal preferences, the vast majority of legal action taken against doctors is the result of poor communication skills and lack of empathy on behalf of the doctor.

You don't need to give us your medical history, or even a tiny bit of it, GoodbyeStranger.

Is the definition of a good doctor one who treats their patients as effectively and efficiently as possible? Or one who optimises making the patient feel safe by listening to the patient and having a good bedside manner?

I do wonder if the need to have the cleverest doctor is changing with AI? Maybe the most effective doctors in the future will be the ones who are best are engaging the patient and eliciting from them the information to feed into the computer for computation into potential diagnoses, probability of each diagnosis, implied associated risks and optimal available treatment?
What I am saying is maybe in the past you really needed your doctor to be as clever and knowledgeable as possible but in the future it will be better to have be as empathetic as possible.

Remember watching one of those junior doctor programmes and there was a young lad who kept being admitted for losing weight. They tested and treated him but couldn't find a cause. Until a first year found 10 minutes to sit and chat with him and he let slip he had a massive cannabis problem. Which was the cause. No one had thought to check as he was young. Listening is a real skill as a doctor.
And I totally agree getting information from those horses mouths. Go to open days and ask the question in September. Then you can go to Ho6 and tell him what they say. Job done.
And I believe Reading is now beyond hot and they are spraying the kids with water. The smell must be toxic.

Tis hot at Leeds as well - 27 degrees.

The open cesspit under the campsite loos must be beyond awful.

I am a medical consultant qualified in a different country which does not even appear in the league table and I don't look for where my doctor is qualified but how they are clinically trained after that.
Some of the foreign educated doctors are head and shoulders ahead of their UK trained peers when it comes to practical skills! The basic sciences which some universities are good at ( Oxbridge/ UCL/ Imperial etc.,) is not the be all and end all!

As far as medicine is concerned you need basic sciences to some extent, common sense ( a large dollop of it!!), ability to communicate ( lot of foreign trained doctors end up having GMC procedures against them because of this mainly) , empathy and ability to connect to your patient - are all equally important. I completely agree with the pp who said that you should have to ability to talk to your patient and get relevant information- I have had patients tell me things which I don't want to repeat anywhere which were the cause for their symptoms. I saw a patient on a stretcher last Friday but recognised that her husband was my patient as well ( seen him once few months ago) enquired about him - I could not help her but she was surprised that I recognised her husband and they were very happy when they left!

Any prospective medic may have all of the necessary attributes or find some of the other attributes difficult to achieve - medical universities make an effort to make sure that they have all of the necessary attributes but it is not a fail safe method.

I have sat through Oxbridge/ UCL/Imperial admission talks, have Dd who has just got into a London medical school (OP not interested in Oxbridge but only London universities) have a number of medics as my close friends with at least 13 children known to me who have gained admissions to Oxbridge/ London - Kings, / UCL/ Imperial, Birmingham / Cardiff/ Plymouth in the last 6-7 years but apart from two all of them ,including my own Dd,did only three A levels and were successful! Only one of them went to state comprehensive but the rest went to private school but this has not affected their application process.

I am involved in postgraduate training honesty don't care where any of my trainees primary qualification is from but am only interested in how they are performing at their job/ what they require to progress in their training

Dd chose medicine at the last minute so I have to learn a lot in a short span of time and there are some brilliant suggestions on MN- use the information wisely!
As far as our advice to Dd is concerned- we both ( DH is a surgeon) have said don't moan about the work you are expected to do after qualification, don't watch time - if it means you have to go on your off day to learn something do it, make sure that you respect everyone who works in the hospital and treat patients as you will treat your friend/ family.
Due to high competition and also where one chooses to do their degree (Dd would not look at any course more than 3 hours of travel!!/ two girls with exceptional academics would not do BMAT) most universities do end up with really brilliant students ,who do very well once they have gained admission.

OP- please take him to open days, write to the universities he is interested, see how he is doing in Physics and if it affects if performance drop it - better to gain a medical place even if it is not where he wants to go...
Medicine is a marathon and not a sprint - he will enjoy wherever he end up!
Good luck to your son..

Sorry, it is a long post and was in double mind if I have to post - hopefully someone will find it useful!

I found it very useful ProfessorLayton (still my favourite game) 😁. V glad yours is on her way and it is definitely just the start of a long old process. Over on the 2018 thread we are still chatting occasionally. Applying is such a tough year for our kids and it's been lovely to have MN support and advice.

And I can't even bring myself to think about the cesspit at Reading. If there's a Cholera epidemic next week we'll know where it started !!

titchy they may be the horses mouth to you but I prefer the real life model, then I can verify it as a bona fide source. Absolutely not saying that the people trying to help on here aren't the real McCoy, just that I know for sure what I'm getting with real life people.

Zanda I've mown the lawn beautifully (v stripey) and done a whole load of other garden things and admired the dahlias which have grown fabulously in my absence up North. In fabulous sunshine. Checking in now before we take the doggies along the beach now that the crowds have gone. The idea is that I also swim but not sure if I will, having mellowed after lawn mowing with wine :)

Hugo DD has just shared a photo of someone's tent at Reading completely on fire.

Quair a random person on here who I don't know from Adam (and who doesn't know me, clearly) told me I'd never had cause to have any real interaction with doctors. I'm therefore completely entitled to give as much or as little as I choose. It's not the least gratuitous in that context (and actually not for you to tell me what I can do. I'm really quite independent). You do only have a fraction of my history actually. Well Tapas the first wasn't high risk at the outset but then went wrong (lung collapsed at birth) then the same thing happened with #2 followed by a delayed post partum haemorrhage so after that they were all high risk. In fact after baby # four all are high risk anyway. But yes, not sensible I guess. I might keep going like this as a challenge actually, thanks to Cleowhatnot - plenty more available at any rate. I'll see.

worriedaboutray are you a doctor or a clin neg lawyer? I think you're a medical student still at uni? So pretty much a babe. It's slightly rude to call someone's personal preferences peculiar. Maybe work on the empathy?

I win

Well done zanda

Forgive me if I’m overstepping but if all your children have been so high risk, wouldn’t a sensible decision have been to perhaps stop for your safety and the safety of your children?

I don’t know, obviously.
I stopped at 2.

There are many reasons why some have many children e.g religion or just wanting a big family (no insider knowledge on goodbye)) and I suspect the response to this will be none of your business hahaha.

Personally I think you would need nerves of steel and the patience of a saint to contemplate that many. Having one DC was my personal preference which I suspect many will suggest is equally 'wrong'.

Each to their own!

Anyway, I thought we were attempting 'peace'