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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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3 A Levels for medicine when everyone else is doing 4

378 replies

MoreNmore · 20/08/2019 13:01

DS is at a well-known grammar where 4 A levels is the norm for medicine applicants. He’s done his EPQ and is doing 3 sciences & maths A level. He wants to drop physics. School (strong on Oxbridge) say “because his peers are doing 4, his doing 3 will be seen as a less competitive application”. He’s getting good BMAT scores in practise but who knows on the day? He isn’t applying to Cambridge where l know many have taken 4 A levels. More interested in the London med schools. He’s emailed and asked and they just quote the standard “3 A levels required”. He doesn’t know his predicted grades yet but it’s more the risk of missing an offer together with the extra work load of the 4th A level that is bothering him. If many of his peers at school are doing 4 and he does 3 will admission a Tutor think “hmm despite going to X School he’s only take 3 A levels..”. His school have a huge cohort of medicine applicants every year.

OP posts:
goodbyestranger · 21/08/2019 12:53

mumsneedwine I think you possibly ought to retract any suggestion of name calling. I'm always extremely polite. I think we may be at least equally qualified on this subject too, with me possibly (possibly) having the edge on the situation for grammar school students.

I think it's fair to say that at later stages of their career the students from certain medical schools do on the whole seem to progress further. But different doctors will be looking for different career pathways - life doesn't end at F1.

goodbyestranger · 21/08/2019 12:54

Lots of possibly's there!

mumsneedwine · 21/08/2019 13:16

This is supposed to be helping OP so sorry if said anything wrong - I'm sure many people know lots more than me. Especially Admissions tutors so talk to them.
But don't let school bully your DS into doing 4. Being a cynic, could this be anything to do with league table boasting by the school ? Because it won't help him at all.
And good luck. It's a tough process for them (& us) and support from here has been fantastic for us over on the 2018 thread - my DD knows one of the DDs of another poster and they send us drunk 3am photos of them together 😁

goodbyestranger · 21/08/2019 13:33

I would assume that the info on which the top schools rely to give out advice is actually based on what the admissions tutors say, directly to them, at subject specific days, tutor to HoD/ Ho6. As well as using recent data on successful applications from within their own schools to corroborate that advice. That's what I'm basing my advice to the OP on too, since our schools are similar.

goodbyestranger · 21/08/2019 13:34

Albeit, to some extent, at one remove.

ZandathePanda · 21/08/2019 13:48

We had this argument over an AS they wanted Dd to take. We drew up a table with the university and courses she wanted to look at against whether they even looked at an AS. We phoned the admissions dept directly to check. Cambridge were the only one that didn’t outright reject it but it certainly wasn’t needed. However all the universities only look at the 3 highest A Levels and it would have been detrimental to spread herself out further. I really don’t think an admissions tutor is going to know so much about an individual school as to say: ‘tut tut, Mores son is at suchandsuch grammar school and they always do 4 ALevels he must be a right slacker’.
The tutor is talking rubbish. Use the extra time to get work experience in a care home - that is easy to do and would look much better.
If it bothers you that much, wait a few weeks til admissions depts have quietened down and directly phone them.

titchy · 21/08/2019 14:00

As well as using recent data on successful applications from within their own schools to corroborate that advice

Problem is that this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. X school had 4 successful applicants last year all of whom did 4 x A Levels, therefore X school's most recent experience is that applicants with 4 A levels tend to ret offers, so they tell their year 11s that they should do 4 to increase their chances, so that's what they do.

Whereas the experience of people who work in universities (like myself - senior although I am not in Admissions) is that we see the whole range of applicants, have very (very!) in-depth debates about admissions policies, target grades etc and we have the data to support what we say. There is nothing universities like more than evidence-based decision making!

goodbyestranger · 21/08/2019 14:11

titchy I completely agree on the logic there.

I was referring precisely to evidence-based decision making. That's what schools like ours like too.

I think Medicine has admissions peculiarities all of its own, so other disciplines don't always translate easily. Our school does not give the same advice for other subjects.

titchy · 21/08/2019 14:43

I was referring precisely to evidence-based decision making. That's what schools like ours like too.

But the only evidence you have is based on your school's pupils - that's where the self-fulfilling prophecy comes in. Schools DON'T have anywhere near the full set of evidence.

JanetheObscure · 21/08/2019 16:04

Friend's DD, who went to the sort of school you're talking about, has just met her offer for a "prestigious" medical school with 3 A levels. She either only ever did 3, or dropped the fourth subject early in the sixth form; not sure.

She did very well in the UKCAT test, I do know that.

SirTobyBelch · 21/08/2019 16:09

I really don’t think an admissions tutor is going to know so much about an individual school as to say: ‘tut tut, Mores son is at suchandsuch grammar school and they always do 4 ALevels he must be a right slacker’.
The tutor is talking rubbish.

Absolutely correct. If the school comes into consideration as a contextual factor, it will be driven either by a pre-selected list (e.g. Bristol has a list of schools that automatically qualify for contextual offers: schools that aren't on that list are all treated the same as each other) or by specific measures (e.g. attainment 8 score, proportion of pupils eligible for free school meals, etc.). Admissions tutors do not go through individual applications deciding to treat them differently because of the school attended. I have no interest whatsoever in whether an applicant has taken 4 A-levels, regardless of which school she/he went to.

goodbyestranger · 21/08/2019 18:07

titchy I think we're talking about a smallish group of schools and a smallish group pf medical schools, so I think it's entirely possible that the Ho6 at such schools are able to elicit info relevant to their cohort from the admissions guys at the medical schools in question. I mean, these people all have jobs to do and they don't have to beg for info - none of this is kept in a locked cupboard.

Obviously just because top performing schools advise their pupils aiming for competitive courses to go the extra mile, that doesn't mean to say it's an absolute rule. It also doesn't mean it applies to the generality of pupils or applications.

Toby I assume that when you interview an applicant you have their UCAS form in front of you. If you don't, then your practice differs from the places my own DC and their peers have interviewed at.

mumsneedwine · 21/08/2019 18:11

None of DDs had her UCAS form - mainly because there were 7-8 stations at each one and a lot were practical or role play. One had her PS for one station but didn't even look at it. They made their decisions on the person in front of them at that stage.

Going through similar with 2nd child for vet and again over half say they don't read the PS. They get them to fill out their own forms instead !

SirTobyBelch · 21/08/2019 18:23

Toby I assume that when you interview an applicant you have their UCAS form in front of you. If you don't, then your practice differs from the places my own DC and their peers have interviewed at.

No. One of the interviewers on the MMI circuit has the UCAS personal statement only (none of the education/qualification details). The rest of the interviewers are interviewing totally blind. The decision is about the person in front of them, not the one on paper. Applicants' educational background is none of the interviewers' business.

bengalcat · 21/08/2019 19:32

You’ll only have their application form if doing face to face interviews as a pair or more . As Toby says for those med schools that do MMI circuits you won’t see sight or sound of them .

ZandathePanda · 21/08/2019 19:47

OP schools are a business. Their reputations are everything if they are selective as they need the cream of the crop to go to them. Their marketing etc is much more ‘authoritarian’ in nature (‘we know best’). Look at the evidence from this thread. Only 2 posters (parents) have agreed with the school. Everyone else, including teachers, those with children at medical school, admissions tutors and an examiner have said 3 is fine. The university info said 3 is fine. Show your child the evidence so they feel confident in their decision. Then make sure they really want to be a doctor by getting them some experience eg a care home. I taught clever pupils who wanted to be doctors because ‘it pays well and it’s prestigious’ not because they cared about making people better. You need to have the latter bit to have a truly satisfying career.

goodbyestranger · 21/08/2019 23:45

Toby OP is asking advice from the perspective of a parent of a superselective student aiming for the more competitive institutions on a competitve course. My comments are a response to that. I think that while your advice may be very helpful for lots of medical school applicants it isn't addressing the more specific situation outlined and your responses suggest that you don't interview at any of the institutions OP has mentioned. mumsneedwine is also giving very generalised advice. That's all good, as far as it goes, but it doesn't really answer the OP's question.

goodbyestranger · 21/08/2019 23:49

Zanda you're answering the question in too broad a way too. Superselective student/ top medical school. That's the long and the short. Do none of you recall being told at A level to answer the question asked, not re-frame it so that you can sound knowledgeable about what you know but almost completely avoid responding to what was actually asked?

goodbyestranger · 21/08/2019 23:51

Zanda being a parent doesn't preclude also being any of the other things you mention!

ZandathePanda · 22/08/2019 00:37

Goodbye Grin I thought you may know more than everyone else Wink

orangeblosssom · 22/08/2019 01:27

I think it's fair to say that at later stages of their career the students from certain medical schools do on the whole seem to progress further.

This completely untrue and it is quite obvious that goodbyestranger is not a medic.

bengalcat · 22/08/2019 06:43

Overall a medical degree is a medical degree . How ‘far you go ‘ depends on your performance , desires , added attributes ( some of which you might do as a student but more likely after qualification ) not where you went . After qualifying and trotting through your two foundation years for competitive entry to specialty training programmes your degree is your degree - there is no added bonus for institution unlike other areas of the job market .

titchy · 22/08/2019 07:59

Toby OP is asking advice from the perspective of a parent of a superselective student aiming for the more competitive institutions on a competitve course.

Maybe read OP again Wink ('Not Cambridge, probably London'). That's a pretty broad range of institutions, some very competitive, some less so.

0lga · 22/08/2019 08:16

@MoreNmore
It seems clear on what they use to select for interview. What gets you the offer is where it all seems to go dark

I don’t think that’s true. It’s done on a points based system, whether it’s MMI or the more traditional panel interview.

And yes, you can prepare for MMI, there are books and websites that give typical questions and it’s useful to practise these, especially if your child is younger, less confident or not a natural debater.

I’ve found this thread very interesting . Especially the way that some posters cling to the idea that the admissions system is somehow different for the “ top pupils “ from “ top schools “ applying to “ top medical schools “. Even when they have repeatedly been told that the application system is as objective and evidence based as possible and universities have to be accountable for it.

I can’t decide if it’s because they are so convinced that their money MUST be buying some kind of privilege at admission stage, otherwise what’s the point. They can’t accept that they have forked out all that cash for years and little Sebastian will be treated just the same as Ahmed from the comp down the road.

Yes of course, your money has bought many privileges . But automatic or easier entry into medical school isn’t one of them.

Of course it’s in the schools interest to subtlety imply that this is the case. Although I note a lack of any evidence from anyone on this thread, it’s all hints that an admission tutor whispered this secret knowledge one day to one of of the staff at these “ top schools “. A bit like the Masons.

Alternatively, it may be that some posters need an excuse as to why their their “ top pupils “ aren’t getting into what they personally have decided are the top medical schools. It must be the mean old universities discriminating against them because of their own idea of context.

“ Oh no we can’t possibly interview Sebastian with his UKCAT of 860 and his AAA, I know Old Smythe his tutor at Harrow and he says all the boys there do at least 4 A levels”.

It doesn’t happen. Nearly every medical school selects for interview on a points based system and they usually tell you what they take into account - some combination of GCSEs, PS, A levels and entrance tests.

Then the interview is also points based. Most MMI interviewers are blinded to the applicants background , as a PP said. The PS is usually discussed at one station but that’s it. References are screened.

Kids from Eton don’t have to do better than those from grammar schools. However kids from Eton don’t get any EXTRA kudos from having done work experience with daddy who is Professor of surgery at KCL. They may in fact get fewer points at that station than Ahmed from the comp who worked part time in a nursing home for a year.

Not because of “ context” , but because Ahmed probably has more insight into patient care , ethical dilemmas and the issues affecting staff than the lad who floated around dad’s department for a week and shook a few hands.

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like discrimination.

MoreNmore · 22/08/2019 10:15

He’s at a grammar. A mixed bag of pupils in terms of background and ethnic origin. Incredibly hard working and high achieving. Large number go to Oxbridge.

OP posts: