3 A Levels for medicine when everyone else is doing 4

[MoreNmore]

DS is at a well-known grammar where 4 A levels is the norm for medicine applicants. He’s done his EPQ and is doing 3 sciences & maths A level. He wants to drop physics. School (strong on Oxbridge) say “because his peers are doing 4, his doing 3 will be seen as a less competitive application”. He’s getting good BMAT scores in practise but who knows on the day? He isn’t applying to Cambridge where l know many have taken 4 A levels. More interested in the London med schools. He’s emailed and asked and they just quote the standard “3 A levels required”. He doesn’t know his predicted grades yet but it’s more the risk of missing an offer together with the extra work load of the 4th A level that is bothering him. If many of his peers at school are doing 4 and he does 3 will admission a Tutor think “hmm despite going to X School he’s only take 3 A levels..”. His school have a huge cohort of medicine applicants every year.

They do not look at schools. They do not care. They want the best candidates ! They do not have time to go through thousands of applications individually to relate it to school data (which is pretty dodgy anyway as changes each year). I say this as a teacher who recently attended a UCAS session with many many Admissions tutors. They were c clear that contextual data was just used for contextual offers. Can't really be clearer than that.
Anyway OP, you don't need 4 A levels to get 4 offers, even from Imperial, UCL etc. Go to open days and ask Admissions tutor yourself and then you'll hear it from the people who matter.

The plot thickens.
It seems that the “contextual” angle is being interpreted differently depending on one’s academic territory. More academic schools feel (paranoia?) that it puts an extra burden on their applicants while the average school think it doesn’t benefit them as their applicants have to work just as hard as anyone.
He has asked admissions departments and they merely quote the relevant excerpt from the prospectus “3 A levels one on chemistry..”
I suppose they are not going to say for example; “from Eton? Nothing less than 5 A levels and an Olympic medal in chemistry hurdles”.

But that someone capable of medicine will also be capable of doing 4 levels and doing well. If they find 4 A levels is too much work then medicine will be too much work

Just not true. Many people on my course are graduates who did arts subjects. They're generally in the top deciles because they're better at organising themselves and being proactive than those who've shone at A Level.

A Levels also won't really help during clinical years, whereas a part time job will help you get on with staff and therefore get teaching and help.

mumsneedwine I wonder why the poster on another medical thread, discussing the numbers of A* the typical Cambridge medical student has, isn't coming in for this level of outrage. Not that that's where the OP's DC is trying for, but almost all Oxbridge applicants will also be trying for Imperial and UCL so are in fact directly competing.

More will be expected from a student from Westminster or Eton or QEB than from a middling comp. Was your admissions day for your own subject? Most tend to be subject specific. I'm not sure that it's helpful to generalise from a different subject and it's certainly not helpful to generalise across all medical schools.. I was reply to the OP's context rather than going global: top grammar, top medical schools. My advice is in line with what I know of those specific areas and the advice given to applicants with the OP's DC's profile.

Or even replying!

DD did 3 A levels and seems to be coping fine. While also playing sport, volunteering, clubbing (a lot) and generally having a really good time.

I do agree that the contextual thing is seen as a bigger thing to private schools and they seem scared of it. I can assure you that students from seton are required to get the same grades as from Bog comp. I know this as my DD applied at the same time as her friend from Eton (met at a party in year 10). They both had the same GCSEs, same A level predictions and similar UKCAT. Both got 4 interviews. So no advantage/disadvantage to either.

But ask at open days - others did when we went. And were told that having 4 gave nothing extra - they wanted 3.

"Top medical schools" is an interesting concept in itself. Oxbridge medical students are renowned for being extremely academic but not very good with patients.

It depends on your priorities.

Eton ! Although I'm sure seton in a good school too😁.
And the UCAS talk was a whole day thing for staff who support students but I did go to the Medicine session. Where this question was asked and answered as I said.
Reason lots of kids at Oxbridge have it's of A stars is because lots of kids at all medical schools have lots of A stars.

“ I wonder why the poster on another medical thread, discussing the numbers of A* the typical Cambridge medical student has, isn't coming in for this level of outrage“

Goodbye could you point me to that thread? Even though he isn’t applying to Cambridge l’d be interested to know what’s being said.

Makes me smile that people rank medical schools. When they apply for their F1 no one knows where they went !!! All done by points.

MoreNmore well in fact some tutors can be quite open but it is true that they don't particularly want to open Pandora's box to shouts of inequity (not that there is any in fact). DS1 was in an identical sounding situation to your own, in terms of school and applications.

mum exactly! When you're working, it's more important that you're a decent person who gets on with the nurses, is kind to patients and meets competencies.

When you're attending an arrest in the middle of the night, no one cares what school you went to.

It's the most recent 2019 thread.

mumsneedwine the national and international tables rank medical schools! I don't think it's a new thing is it? The same old schools always tend to bob around near the top. Presumably someone with superior knowledge to you or I knows why!

Of course F1s know where each other went - lots of them know each other from uni, esp especially in London.

Oh dear god. Yes I know the F1 know where they went ! But when they are chosen by the Deaneries for their F1 then no one knows. So going to a certain Uni has no bearing on whether you get your first choice or not. No one cares. You are ranked by points. Please don't be rude and start name calling as it's pathetic.
OP I hope I've helped a bit with info. Given as a teacher who supports student applications but also as a mum who has gone through the process. Me and DD learned a lot from talking to the Admissions tutors and they are very open and honest. Do the same and I think you'll be very reassured. One of my lovely students is off to Imperial in a few weeks for Medicine, with 3 A stars. But many normal kids steer clear of London Unis because of the costs. Sad but true.

mumsneedwine the national and international tables rank medical schools! I don't think it's a new thing is it?

I suspect mumneeds was referring to the ridiculousness of applicants and parents ranking med schools within the UK. Which is ridiculous - applications should be looked at according to the individuals strengths and preferred teaching style. Not the QS ranking.

And no, of course admissions tutors don't look at applicants from Eton and not bother to interview because they were only predicted two A stars and not three, whilst interviewing identical applicants from a state grammar for example.

People here, usually those from elite private schools (anecdata....) always seems to think admission tutors have endless hours to look at schools and relative performance and correlations and what-not. THEY DON'T! They're very busy people trying to cram in their research and teaching and endless meetings alongside sifting through hundreds of UCAS applications on a screen. Meet the criteria, contextual if appicable - you're interviewed. Don't, you're not. Simples.

Just had a look at that 2019 thread. Someone’s poor DS missed their Chemistry A* grade and lost their Cambridge offer. I don’t think l’m wrong to be concerned about stretching oneself too thin. But at the same time you have to convince them to give you an offer over all the other worthy applicants.
It seems clear on what they use to select for interview. What gets you the offer is where it all seems to go dark.

Get the interviews is first hurdle do apply strategically with your stats - UKCAT/BMAT, GCSEs, etc. Then do your best at interview - DDs advice is just be you. Practice a bit (she had a good book with some predicted questions) but don't rehearse. Especially as most are MMIs and can't be prepared for (except Sheffield who give the questions before hand 😁). Lots of different things are tested these days, such as empathy and listening skills. DD didn't one station discussing cheese with the patient educator as she'd done what was needed in first 30s. They had a lovely old chat. She got full marks for that station - so cheese chat is very helpful !

Sorry, writing while sorting washing from holiday so excuse typos.

And totally agree with titchy. Chose the medical school that suits DS - teaching style, patient contact, dissection/prosecution, intercalating, campus etc. Not because of where it ranks in some arbitrary table.
UCAS told us the story of one v highly regarded Uni that has been given awful student satisfaction rating this year. When they looked into it it was mainly because the new chairs they had put in the lecture theatres were really uncomfortable. Not many bother to fill the surveys in - mainly done if you've got a gripe apparently. Anyhow, said Uni has recushioned the seats !

The feedback survey that is used for ranking medical schools is so unrepresentative that the BMA Medical Schools Council called for students to boycott it last year in order to invalidate the results.

Mumsneedwine was that KCL re the satisfaction survey ?

Several Students Unions asked students to boycott the NSS anyway - including Oxford! So any satisfaction data you see is now about 4 years out of date.

MoreNmore there was no Cambridge offer. The DS in question unfortunately didn't get any offers at all his time around so I'm not sure you're drawing the right conclusion. The advice being given by the other poster who has had a DC at Cambridge was looking ahead to a re-application for 2020. If we're talking about the same exchange which I think we are.

Yes absolutely agree that applicants need to look at the various courses - there's a very, very wide range out there and very different requirements, with the baseline that even at the 'research' unis, applicants need to display the right characteristics to look as though they'd make a good practising doctor.

And I'm doing the cleaning up on the last day of a holiday, so excuse my typos too! (not that I usually need an excuse).