3 A Levels for medicine when everyone else is doing 4

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DS is at a well-known grammar where 4 A levels is the norm for medicine applicants. He’s done his EPQ and is doing 3 sciences & maths A level. He wants to drop physics. School (strong on Oxbridge) say “because his peers are doing 4, his doing 3 will be seen as a less competitive application”. He’s getting good BMAT scores in practise but who knows on the day? He isn’t applying to Cambridge where l know many have taken 4 A levels. More interested in the London med schools. He’s emailed and asked and they just quote the standard “3 A levels required”. He doesn’t know his predicted grades yet but it’s more the risk of missing an offer together with the extra work load of the 4th A level that is bothering him. If many of his peers at school are doing 4 and he does 3 will admission a Tutor think “hmm despite going to X School he’s only take 3 A levels..”. His school have a huge cohort of medicine applicants every year.

Mine home. She's as brown as a conker, smells of bonfire and very very hoarse. Sounds like they all had a good time and all survived another year. Bet the clear up is hell !!

Loving the Rick Astley thing. I bet their backpacks don't send you as high as the whiff on Glastonbury high street today. They could charge you to walk along it.

I work at a top UK medical school with an admissions remit including interviews for entry. Those that think doing 4 a levels will stand them in better stead on some notion that it sets up their work ethic are mistaken.

Get your A*AA - chemistry and biology are key but chemistry is more important (IMO). Biology is good for the language and basic intro but early years repeats much of this.
Get your BMAT/UKCAT scores - prep for this
Practice your ethics/essay interview question
Have some experience of working in healthcare or some perspective you can share to demonstrate you have a genuine interest in the vocation you wish to enter (this does not include just having doctors for parents).
Demonstrate that you have wider interests, a capacity for work and resilience. TBH I'd take someone who spent their time volunteering over a 4th a level.

You can do all of this but there is a lottery element and it's numbers game - there is no one magical element once you pass all the criteria. I can assure you - no one gives a rats ass if you went to the 'right' school (eye roll) but only did 3 instead of 4 a-levels.

Good luck - we're getting ready for open days and the next cycle (and waiting for the next intake to arrive)!

I’ve been given more information on my original query. Cambridge historically wanted to see how candidates performed “within their cohort”. Are they top of their class/year...that kind of thing. I’m not sure if this is still the case or of Oxford or London Medical schools have similar queries. So that’s where school were coming from. They want to keep all options open for pupils who may change their mind at the last minute.

Yes OP that's absolutely it and Oxford certainly does.

OP, so the conflicting advice amounts to this:

1. School gives potentially outdated advice pertaining to Cambridge only. Your DS is not looking at Oxbridge, but at London medical schools.

2. Your DS contacts these medical schools and they state that they require 3 A levels, not 4.

3. Medical admissions tutors on this thread confirm this, with added helpful information and advice.

Your DS genuinely appears to want to give up one of his A level choices and he must have good reasons for this. Given the advice received, is it really worth trying to persuade him to stick to four?

Jane the slightly tricky thing here is that at least some quite candid medicine tutors in real life talking to certain schools give (or have given) different advice to those in charge at certain high achieving schools and the chance of an offer could be (or could have been) lost on it. The standard offer comes once the offer is on the table. It would be a brave person to rely on anonymous people on the internet.

khaleesi, a slightly dangerous question given the hostility on this thread to the very concept of 'top UK medical school', but I wonder if you could name all those UK medical schools which you consider to be included in the description 'top'?

Last year 14 students got places at medical school from my son's school so I don't think they were disadvantaged by mainly doing 3 A levels. Indeed you would be unwise to rely on any anonymous person on the internet. We may, as I have said before, all be dogs.

Goodbye, out of interest, have you spoken to these candid tutors yourself?

I reiterate that a friend's DD has just finished at her seriously selective grammar and is about to take up a place at one of the London medical schools you have mentioned ... with 3 A levels and a very good BMAT (I said UKCAT before but I got that wrong).

Also, we should remember that OP's DS is taking reformed A levels. Advice that was pertinent for the old-style A levels won't necessarily apply now.

Yes Jane. Not all of them of course (they haven't all been beating a trail to my door and I'm sure more exist than I've spoken to directly myself). But in answer to your question, yes.

I've already made the point about the new exams Jane, way back - literally pages back.

I think there's probably not much more mileage in this anyhow. OP seems to very sensibly gone back to the school or to a higher authority even than MN .

I agree that the new vs old A Levels has made a difference to school advice.

Historically DDs school encouraged 4 with the less able dropping one after AS (this is a selective Inde).

This has now completely changed. They take 4 up to Dec (or before) and then drop one. The only exception is is they are doing FM. Those doing 3 + FM only concentrate on the A Levels. Those taking 3 take an EPQ too.

Lasts years cohort was 30. They had 3 med + 1 vet + 1 Oxford + 1 Cambridge + the rest RG/equivalent. Unfortunately I have no idea whether more applied but the stats look OK to me. Very far from an expert and I only know this because I did a bit of digging. I also have no way of knowing whether the med/vets were in the 3 or 4 A Level camp.

...the approach i would take is to ring admissions at the Unis you are considering and see what they say. Everything else is speculation.

The other practical side is this:

A boy whose parents I know hasn’t got into medical school this year. I don’t know his grades but do know he had a remark because he was 2 marks off the grade he needed but it didn’t go up. I bet he wishes he had done 3 rather than 4. I bet his parents aren’t too happy with the school either. There are threads on the Oxbridge and other threads in the last few weeks on a similar theme (different subjects) where they have done 4 but not got an A or A* needed in their 3 grade offer.

I think schools are doing a real disservice to pupils in these cases, with Further Maths an exception. When it is imperative you need the A’s and A* and you are competing against most people doing 3 it’s madness. My Dd’s exam timetable was bad enough only doing 3. She did humanities (bunched together) but sciences/maths seemed to be bunched together too. Her friend (doing 4) had 3 exams scheduled for the same morning so she was in isolation for 24hours so she could do 2 one day and one the next morning. This friend dropped a grade too.

Think of the practicalities, the lesser stress levels and the time created for voluntary work experience in doing 3.

Education is about acquiring knowledge and to this end 4 is commendable but actually if the target is to get into medical school requiring 3 high grades, aim for the 3 high grades.

I think more schools will stop doing 4 to be honest for all the reasons above. I know a private school nearby who used to do 4 but now does 3 (except further maths). The points ‘toting-up’ system really isn’t used for the RG universities, if it ever was, so that rules out advantages of doing 4 ‘jack of all trades’.

ProfessorLayton1 and khaleesi71 are definitely much more relevant posts to consider than my anecdotal evidence of this year. However it is worth considering the actual exam period practicalities of doing more exams than the others (you are competing against) as well.

the only thing is bpisok a phone call will only elicit info already on the website. Unis are not going to give out any info to the public which might show a more multi layed approach, because it's very easy to chuck cats among pigeons. Just look at the divisions about which schools take which GCSEs (ie ICSEs or reformed) and at the articles from independent HTs about discrimination. The politics has to be factored in and that's what those at the high achieving schools know they're dealing with. I agree that things might have to shift with the new A levels, I'm just not sure how, while still maintaining fairness.

New A Levels have made a significant difference to University offers and requirements. And why lots of them, including those 'top' London ones, have been taking dropped grades. The new exams are tough and Universities are aware of the differences these have made to grades. So I think OPs Head is basing his advice on outdated info - he won't be the only one. My DD was told she must have maths A level to do medicine - it's not been required for years.
Admissions tutor really don't go to certain schools giving them different advice to that given at open days. They would be in so much trouble if they did !

Back to the advice I've given right through mumsneedwine: go back to the Ho6 and do what I called drilling down to see exactly what the advice is based on. As I say, it was certainly good advice previously but having a chat about how far there's reliance on info now not relevant because of the new linear, tougher exams is the best way to go. Some schools are more responsive than others, some play it safe (irate parents can be troublesome).

All formal advice will stick to the published advice, obviously mumsneedwine.

Also remember that the unis haven't been dealing with the new exams for long either - so there's an inevitable lead time to working out how to adjust. Schools are one step further behind, almost inevitably, in tracking admissions and getting new advice.

mums yes our head of 6th form was very insistent Dd did an AS. We gave him all the evidence (as did a lot of parents). They have dropped it this year.

Hopefully as Admissions tutors hammer home the requirements all schools will give the correct, up to date advice. Getting 3 As with the odd A* needed is the most important thing and acing those entry exams. Best way to do this is to give yourself time to study. And having a hobby and job and social life make you a more favourable all round candidate for Medicine.

mumsneedwine I think you should perhaps allow seasoned Ho6s to give advice appropriate to their individual charges rather than insist on this very rigid approach which is no doubt spot on for kids at your school. I'm sure the good ones are all as up to date as it's possible to be, given the brave new world of linear exams coupled with all those other things which drive and mould admissions. They may be playing a bit safe as the new exams bed down. Things are still in a bit of a flux. But what you say is based on the premise that doing more than three almost certainly risks a lower grade somewhere or another, or compromises a social life or extra curricular stuff or a part time job and you really don't seem to get that a significant number of kids at high achieving schools are able to do all these things and more and probably still will be with the new exams. Which makes them impressive. And when they interview at 'top' schools they very often are impressive and do make very competitive applicants. Their school peers are judged alongside them.

This is uber circular though!

A lot of kids round our way have jobs because of money rather than because of an application.

If students want to do 4 and understand the implications I support them all the way. We have several this year who did 4 & did well. But, they don't need them - big difference.

And applying to medicine is hard work, requiring time out of school for interviews which means missing lessons - it's easier to catch up on 3 subjects than 4.

So if you love exams go for it. If you'd rather not then it won't matter one bit. You'll still end up at the same medical school as each other, as long as you get the grades. Interviewed have no clue what school you went to and frankly don't care. They just want the best candidates.

And this is not my advice. It's the advice of Admissions tutors and UCAS. You know, the people who actually do the job. It's not difficult to speak to them at open days - they are all very nice.

Interesting comments on an Oxbridge thread (though not for medicine):
They didn't seem to care two hoots about the fourth A level being dropped.....certainly shouldn't worry about the fourth subject - particularly not now with the new exams.