The "Durham difference" - huge bias towards Private schools

[mummymeister]

I have just been to the open day at Durham Uni with one of my DC. I have other children in Uni and at various stages of education but have never felt so incredibly angry before.

My DC wants to study a subject in the Classics department. There was a last minute room change which meant we missed a talk and had 50 minutes to kill so I looked at some stats and wished I hadnt!

66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated.

When I challenged the admissions officer about this massive bias against state pupils she just ummed and erred with no real idea of a plan but kept saying that they were "working on trying to improve this"! Sorry but this is just not good enough imo. And to make it even worse this year the figure has gone up by nearly 2% so clearly what they have been doing has made stuff all difference.

They seem to put great store on reading all applications and personal statements so this is clearly where something needs to be done. I know many parents of children in private schools so I know how much time, effort and money is spent on making sure that the personal statement is perfect. No such help at our state school.

My DC will meet the predicted grades but honestly am just not sure I want them to be somewhere so incredibly elitist. It feels like a waste of a choice to me.

I guess I thought we were moving towards a level playing field and that the school you went to didnt really matter but clearly at Durham it does. I cant be the only parent that feels like this can I? I am unsure what to do next, whether to write in and express these feelings again or just to accept that life isnt fair.

Bubbles as you can see by my previous post, ‘chips on shoulders’ work both ways. You love stating your opinion but you definitely need to add some fish to those chips of yours about state school pupils.
We were snubbed on our lovely first class seats when Dd cheerfully explained her school was a state school (the group we were sat with wanted to know which school everyone went to and frowned when they couldn’t ‘place’ hers). We were not worthy . I could have mentioned the public school I went to to try and up our social standing but didn’t feel the need.

However, as seen by the current state of politics with Boris, Gove and Johnson, Dd is under no illusion that private-school-Oxbridge educated people, are any better than her.

It’s pretty obvious there will be snobs in any sphere. Dd is good mates with several privately educated people who are not snobby and a few state educated people who are.

Possibly because the OP and I are more open minded, that is why both of us were shocked at the stereotypes at Durham.

Boris and Johnson?

Gove was a grammar school boy.

Gove went to a private school on a scholarship.

Actually Gove has a scholarship to an independent school.

The thing is Zanda and OP these people were not actually members of the University and therefore the university should not be judged on their behaviour . For all you know none of these people would be offered a place and your dd ( course permitting) would be .

Obviously Gove had not has

Ah yes just checked, you're right about Michael Gove. But anyhow not archetypal well off background at all - far from it. State primary and then scholarship.

OP - You raised the issue, and when pretty much everyone has said it is not Durhams fault, you are ignoring our opinions. Raise it with Durham if that makes you feel better, but the answer is always going to be that the issue lies with the state schools, not the universities.

Personally DD is not applying to Durham, it is too far North, too cold, and DH is not prepared to drive that far. Decisions are based on all sorts of odd reasons, the university couldn't do anything about our bias either.

TonTon no wasn’t judging the university on the parents. Durham University is obviously a very good university. I know a few people who went to Durham (years ago) and some had a great time, others not. Dd and I were discussing the university experience she would have, people she would be surrounded by, the course, the atmosphere of each city etc. She wants the best possible university experience, of which course content is the highest factor. She wants to do a specific course so she’s researched it well. Prestige doesn’t factor for her, though obviously there’s an element of research quality etc that is related, which she obviously is interested in.

When Dd was in Year 6, a parent (Conservative MP!) said to her that she was bright enough to go to private school. We have a very good comp down the road so she didn’t. She reminded me of that when I said about this mumsnet conversation. She said it was as if those parents on the train were just concerned about getting into a prestigious university for prestige’s sake. Their children were actually a lot better.

Gove went to two state primaries and then got a partial scholarship to the local independent school.

One of the state primaries was the same one I went to few years later. I am reliably informed by older siblings of contemporaries that he got battered a lot.

Well of course you might look at a university for the sake of prestige. Your DD obviously has no understanding of the jobs market. Prestige might be the gateway to a better job and maybe the parents just want the best for their DC? Again, what is wrong with this? Or is that no longer a worthy attribute to have as a parent?

This idea that an undergrad will definitely be taught by the same people who have done prestigious research is also a very dubious way to choose a university. They might be away doing all sorts of things or doing post grad only. It’s best not to go too niche and find only one university will do.

All humanities grads are competing against each other for grad jobs. Prestigious universities often offer the most rigorous and academic courses where employers are confident in the quality of grads. Parents, quite properly, like the idea of this and so do employers. Hence their DC seek entry to this type of university and do not focus on each area of research or the minutiae of each course. They are more flexible and open to new areas of learning that university might offer.

Zanda your DD may select on course content above other factors but I'm not sure that selecting on prestige, physical place etc is any less worthy. I think that mine on the whole went for general reputation above other things because from that other positive things flow, or should flow. The physical place was probably second and course content some way down....

I agree Bubbles. I think my DC ignobly went for prestige because from that other positive things tend to flow. To be fair some avoided London choices, simply because they didn't want to live in London for undergrad, but that apart, they went for reputation and physical place (thus conveniently avoiding the hassle of multiple open days - win win!).

Oh that's weird I thought I just deleted the first post when the phone rang. Mysterious.

The poorest state educated pupils at very popular top class universities tend to earn less on graduation. It appears many don’t aim for the higher paying careers.

Or don’t want them. I have definitely ‘moved up’ a social class as an adult, as has my DH. We both have very respectable public sector jobs that we do because we believe in public service, and because we would rather have less money and a better work/life balance. We also both lack the shine and confidence of private school in a way that I suspect would hold us back in some areas. I genuinely would loathe to be in the sort of job that pays a graduate £60k+. I do feel though that I’ve lived a fairly useful life though, and my university experience contributed to my achievements. Do we measure the worth of education, social contribution and even social mobility by whether someone goes into ‘the very highest paid careers’?

Oh dear Boris and Johnson! So many I could have chosen from too . Anyway what I am saying, and what most people seem to agree with in public, is there should be more diversity of where people were educated at the top of politics and industry. Diversity of experience and all that. Dh is at the top of his industry, he’s working class and never went to university. So no worries about lack of ambition for Dd.

Back to OP. I would get your Dc to really look at as many unis as you can get to and ask questions of everyone and look at accommodation. The key is finding where dc will be happiest. It may be Durham if it’s a great course and they like beautiful small cities and it’s the right distance away from home etc because that could override other worries. The key is for dc to do their homework and get a good fit. Then get the grades.....

Bubbles and Goodbye I would never have doubted your offspring would go for prestige first. We’re more like TooSpotty in that, when Dd becomes Prime Minster, she’ll be doing it for public service rather than the money . And she’ll raise a glass of Prosecco to you Bubbly! Seriously, there really is more to life than prestige and a high paying job. I really admire how Dd’s gone about the whole university-choosing marathon so holistically.

I’m only saying that the parents so derided for visiting Durham might just want the higher paid jobs for their DC. There really is nothing wrong with that! If others aim for different careers that’s ok too. However Oxbridge, Durham and a few others aid the former. That’s perfectly ok.

DD2 certainly doesn’t have the former! Arts grad!

I went to Durham from a state school with non-standard qualifications and had an amazing time. Yes you get some snobby wankers but that is true for most universities. One of the most up-themselves snobby people I ever met went to Southampton Solent.

Even then it was recognised that the key to widening access was about changing perceptions so they actually got the applications in the first place. I've spent too much time arguing with parents who have never been near the place who think their children won't fit in. Schools not encouraging very bright children to aim for the best universities is also a problem. My cousin is very bright but was a tearaway in her teens. She straightened out and did an access course to study as a mature student. Her college pushed her towards Bolton Uni as that is who they were affiliated with and told her she wouldn't fit in at Durham, that they didnt like mature students etc. The online forums told her she was wasting her time as she didnt have a string of top grades at GCSE. She didnt listen to them thankfully and was accepted and had the time of her life at Durham graduating with a first.

Very rude indeed Zanda. My DC have most certainly not all opted for high paying jobs - the uni they've attended has given them choice, that's all. Goodness me - you may well not possess a monopoly of virtue in your house Zanda. I like to think that my DC do, or are likely to do, a significant amount of public good overall.

That's leaving aside the fact that some high paying jobs - certainly plenty in law - do a huge amount of service to the public, besides being well paid. Grr.

Is it just on mumsnet where high paying jobs can't possibly do any civic good?

Hjigh paying jobs to loads of good. In fact you can do a lot more good earning a lot than not surely.

Teenagers need to decide where they want to be eg career goals, look at where people went to university in those careers and then choose accordingly. If they are put off because some people speaking different from how they do or have different interests or the other people's parents have more money or the other people's mothers work full time and therefore can afford XYZ that is a shame because out there on graduatiojn you will have to mix with people who are from all kinds of backgrounds.

Classics dept subjects just tend to have more private school pupils purely because of the fact some comprehensives don't do those subjects - that's all. It's not anti state school bias on the part of the universities who are bending over backwards to allow state pupils in with lower grades in many places these days including where my twin sons are (Bristol).

It is not just state schools either. My sons went to a majority Asian school and there was not much parental enthusiam for classics (and nothing wrong with that - people wanted children to be doctors, vets, architects, lawyers, accountants - the high paid professions - wise people).

I be too they were not sniffy about Durham, Xenia! It’s such a shame parents on here don’t seem to understand that we need as many DC to do as well as possible. We need high tax payers to pay for benefits and the public sector. If everyone was bobbing along in low paid work where would we be? It’s good that people have aspiration to earn highly.

I bet they were .....

Indeed although if you don't want to be very different I suspect some may prefer the best London universities with a bigger ethnic mix which are just as good and you can live with your parents which for some (not all of course - we cannot generalise about whole cultures) is important to make sure people don't date before marriage or drink and that kind of thing.