The "Durham difference" - huge bias towards Private schools

[mummymeister]

I have just been to the open day at Durham Uni with one of my DC. I have other children in Uni and at various stages of education but have never felt so incredibly angry before.

My DC wants to study a subject in the Classics department. There was a last minute room change which meant we missed a talk and had 50 minutes to kill so I looked at some stats and wished I hadnt!

66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated.

When I challenged the admissions officer about this massive bias against state pupils she just ummed and erred with no real idea of a plan but kept saying that they were "working on trying to improve this"! Sorry but this is just not good enough imo. And to make it even worse this year the figure has gone up by nearly 2% so clearly what they have been doing has made stuff all difference.

They seem to put great store on reading all applications and personal statements so this is clearly where something needs to be done. I know many parents of children in private schools so I know how much time, effort and money is spent on making sure that the personal statement is perfect. No such help at our state school.

My DC will meet the predicted grades but honestly am just not sure I want them to be somewhere so incredibly elitist. It feels like a waste of a choice to me.

I guess I thought we were moving towards a level playing field and that the school you went to didnt really matter but clearly at Durham it does. I cant be the only parent that feels like this can I? I am unsure what to do next, whether to write in and express these feelings again or just to accept that life isnt fair.

Ds has ruled out Durham for music despite its rating because it’s heavily weighted towards the theoretical rather than the practical industry experience and contacts he wants to ultimately get work.

I ate soooooo many sandwiches! Definitely more than £10 worth. Virgin operated the service then I think but definitely try to get some deals as you feel so smug! Well I do anyway

Oh and yes to the railcard!
Very satisfying when it pays for itself so soon isn't it?

No. its Durham which is deterring state school pupils not me. I am not going to keep quiet. They need to do more and people need to keep on at them to make sure that they do

No it isn’t!

They are letting state school pupils in at the same rate as they apply. They want state school pupils. They get harassed in the national media about the proportion of private school kids that go.

But they can’t let in kids that don’t apply.

Look I know you mean well. But I’ve been thinking about this for over twenty years. You have been thinking about this since last Wednesday.

The train route will be nothing to do with Durham open days. The train companies can barely respond to demand for events like Glastonbury or Wimbledon. It feels like you’re trying to see things that just aren’t there to confirm your view of the university. Yes there is an inherent tilt towards indepdent schools but that is in line with the application ratio.

You seem to have a negative perception of wealthy parents and you risk this rubbing off on your children who may pick a lower ranking university because of your own negative stereotyping. As much as you say they’ll make your own choice, there is no way they won’t pick up on your thoughts based on your responses here. Also, If you are struggling with this at university level, just wait until your children are looking at grad schemes.

Top universities are the end point in an education system that is unequal. They all do a huge amount of outreach work but there are limits to what they can do.

Classics degrees are available to those who have never studied Latin or Greek. However since learning the languages are the core of a classics degree, students need linguistic ability as well as interest. Unfortunately even exposure to MFLs seems to be reducing in state schools.

Any student liking and studying history could develop an interest in ancient history and classical civilisation without doing A level modules in it. However as PPs have said, universities including Durham can’t admit those who don’t apply because they never consider the subjects or are told that other degrees are more ‘useful’ or appropriate by their parents and schools.

I think that there is a lot to be said for just reading through all possible degree options in the online prospectus of a couple of good universities with an open mind in case there are unfamiliar subjects that are a natural fit. Perhaps initially after finishing GCSEs.

BTW I would hope that any high achieving ambitious student state or private would aim for the most rigorous and stimulating degrees in their subjects. Durham has the reputation for many such degrees and therefore of course is going to have the type of applicants who also consider Oxbridge.

To add that for Classics degrees outside Oxbridge from what I have heard, students learning Latin and Greek from scratch do not have to ‘catch-up’ language-wise with those having the advantage of being taught at school. They start with beginners’ modules and can achieve for example a first class degree without taking the highest level language modules.

I didn’t see any braying public school types on Monday , in fact I was struck by the mix compared to Bristol which did seem to have a very affluent London vibe . Certainly the subject talk we attended as full of normal everyday people and sitting outside the library having lunch and people watching everyone seemed fairly average.

None of the students we met in the colleges we visited were overtly public school either and all seemed welcoming polite and inclusive.

Most of the very over subscribed universities will put an emphasis on the personal statement as a lot of those applying will have very high and similar grades. How else are they meant to distinguish between candidates and there were sessions throughout the day on applying to Durham and lots of guidance on personal statements .

@goodbyestranger "Privately educated DC can be perfectly good company you know." - Brilliant I almost have a tear in my eye. It works both ways round and to get back to the point if a student is interested in their course / clubs / sports / general interests - they will make good friends and most decent people will not define people by the school they went to, either which way around.

Yes I can see that Classics will have more private school entrants just because they have done it at school & therefore know what it is about - but honestly & seriously A level Latin or Greek aint all that. A great friend of my son is doing classics ( well just finished finals ) - 4 year course and when he started ( he stays with us very often ) we were chatting and he thought for the 1st year he was at an advantage over the ab initio students - after that not really at all. But they have separate lessons / courses / modules whatever you want to call them for those who have never studied the languages in the early stages. But if it is a subject "in the Classics department" then the language isn't the primary issue and I am not sure I know of any friends' children at any sort of school who studied Ancient History as part of the syllabus - so that is probably going to be more down to the student's interest

I am not sure what you mean by elitist mummymeister . Why would your DC if good and clever at something not want to go to a good university. If you mean the cohort is not to your liking - then I would encourage more than one look. DS went to what would probably be called an elite university but his friends were a very mixed bunch and those he did not get on with , he smiled politely and moved on. Maybe I am being too simplistic - but if Durham has got the course and stature of what DC wants then to not go because the train has 3 1st class coaches sounds a bit odd. ( and yes as a PP said - booking ahead can be v cheap )

Oh - I do wish your DC all the very very best - I do . And to be fair I think a DC needs to find a course which suits and also a place they find congenial. But it is they who will be there for 3 or 4 years so helpful support - great - other than that - it would be how they found the environment I would be more concerned about

IfIwerenotanandroid - you apply to Durham and can express a preference for which college but they will allocate one if your application is successful and it may or may not be your preferred choice.

Look I know you mean well. But I’ve been thinking about this for over twenty years. You have been thinking about this since last Wednesday.

Quote of the thread

It’s not elitist to take the most qualified applicants. That’s meritocracy. It would be elitist if the selected private school pupils over more qualified state school pupils but that’s not the case is it? The problem lies with state schools which don’t do enough for their pupils, not universities.

@Babdoc she’s now a communist

with regard to posh parents in first class at the Durham open day - I would imagine that the sort of parents who can afford the time off work/train fare for for a university open day will be either wealthier or more highly motivated/interested in their child's education than the average parent to teens. So a rather self-selecting group not necessarily representative of the typical parent to a Durham student.

I wasnt going to put this but as you have raised it here goes, the train back to London, 8 coaches, 3 of which were first class. Good for them that they can afford it! My DC thought this was hilarious

Not entirely sure why you think this is worthy of comment. The Edinburgh (sometimes Newcastle) to London train always has three first class carriages and they really don’t all fill up in Durham 🤣 First class on this route is usually full of business men and women, with the occasional footballer/cricketer who’s off to do punditry for some match or other.

Last year Newcastle and Durham had their open days on the same Saturday in June (29th??). The Northern-bound train was packed. Standing room only. Except 2 spaces in first class that we upgraded to for £15 each (due to the early start we hadn’t had breakfast so we could get a free meal and sit down). We were the only ones left in the 3 first class carriages as everyone got off at Durham (Dd checked as we were in the middle carriage and thought it was hysterical as I had insisted she shouldn’t ‘presume’). We got off at Newcastle with 99% of the rest of the passengers! It was full of sixth formers plus a parent. Newcastle and Durham.

A family member regularly travels from Newcastle to London, and sometimes found the available first class ticket to be cheaper than the available 2nd class. Which depends on how far in advance you book.

Agree with the first class pre-booked tickets usually being cheaper. Used to travel a lot up and down the East coast mainline when I worked at Durham, and nearly always travelled first class for much less.

FGS who chooses a university according to the number of people in first class . FWIW there were special offers on first class tickets from London at the weekend although not Monday probably. But someone did tell me that rather than pay for hotel in Durham they had paid the extra to go first class from London in early train to get breakfast and hit the ground running .

We were in a hotel south of Durham , a well known chain, it was full of ordinary teenagers who had done York in the Sunday . Interestingly none would have been obviously ‘ private school ‘ whatever that is , but were mostly with Dads in posh cars , ds privately educated was with me in a battered Golf .

All this judging by appearances is very depressing .

I think the OP reflects a type of parent who seems to have more chips on the shoulder than is good for them and their DC. I’ve seen the same in my own family. It manifests itself by never aiming high. This is because DC cannot mix with “posh” people. It also seems to include sneering at them and avoiding them by choice of university. It is utterly ludicrous that university educated parents take this view, but they do. It appears to be an acquired state of mind and isn’t necessarily a reflection on upbringing and family values from the previous generation. Going to universities with a low number of privately educated DC seems to be the aim irrespective of the best course or job prospects.

There are also problems with this attitude regarding jobs. The poorest state educated pupils at very popular top class universities tend to earn less on graduation. It appears many don’t aim for the higher paying careers. Again it appears to be parental influence and politics that prevents these grads entering the higher paid professions. I think it’s a shame we cannot ensure all DC are ambitious but with parents like my relatives and the OP, the barriers are huge! Forget social mobility.

To be honest, I don't think it is the fault of the university.

The financial background certainly play a big part in how students choosing subject, there are certainly less state school students choose classic, language, history etc. It's just that simple, for students from not that rich family, they need to think about finding a high earning job first.

I remember a few post I read here, about future jobs that a classic student can do, suggestions are changing into law. Also a post about an Oxbridge classic student who would like to become an academic, most posts are against it, as it will be a very uncertain situation. Richer student don't have these worries, they can afford to just follow their interests.

This article from four years ago is quite interesting. Public school educated classicist bemoaning the abandonment of his beloved subject by state schools, and explaining why it is important to keep it going.

Pease I agree it is depressing. I went to private and public schools and haven’t got an ‘agenda’. Dd goes to a state school. I was trying to argue with Dd that you shouldn’t prejudge university intakes (using me as an example ) but the facts on our train journey proved otherwise. FWIW if Durham had had the course that Dd wanted to do, she would have had a look. She thought that the main factor attracting the (parents) to Durham was not the course but the prestige.

Zanda, you are judging a university on the basis of the parents who turned up for an Open Day! It is the DCs who will be going, not the parents, and only a proportion of the DCs who attend the open days will go to the university in the end anyway.

IME many DCs don't even pick up on this stuff anyway, I think parents should be kept away from open days so students can form their own impressions - I certainly was, I also went to my own open days on my own too, 100 years ago!

What is wrong with prestige of a university attracting people! Honestly - why should this be an issue?

Can I assure you, that most employers won’t care what module you did in y2 that floated your boat in ancient history! Or indeed what you thought of the civil rights module you slaved over in y3 and became an “expert” on. (Unless you want to teach it of course). The course matters because it’s academic and respected and so is the university. It might lead to a decent job.

Matching exact wants is the view of a 17 year old with no experience. Course content is rarely a topic of conversation in a job interview. Many employers and parents will be more than happy with Durham. Many DC feel it will be right for them. Just let them be without continually judging them against your prejudices. What a judgemental, divided and divisive nation we have become.