The "Durham difference" - huge bias towards Private schools

[mummymeister]

I have just been to the open day at Durham Uni with one of my DC. I have other children in Uni and at various stages of education but have never felt so incredibly angry before.

My DC wants to study a subject in the Classics department. There was a last minute room change which meant we missed a talk and had 50 minutes to kill so I looked at some stats and wished I hadnt!

66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated.

When I challenged the admissions officer about this massive bias against state pupils she just ummed and erred with no real idea of a plan but kept saying that they were "working on trying to improve this"! Sorry but this is just not good enough imo. And to make it even worse this year the figure has gone up by nearly 2% so clearly what they have been doing has made stuff all difference.

They seem to put great store on reading all applications and personal statements so this is clearly where something needs to be done. I know many parents of children in private schools so I know how much time, effort and money is spent on making sure that the personal statement is perfect. No such help at our state school.

My DC will meet the predicted grades but honestly am just not sure I want them to be somewhere so incredibly elitist. It feels like a waste of a choice to me.

I guess I thought we were moving towards a level playing field and that the school you went to didnt really matter but clearly at Durham it does. I cant be the only parent that feels like this can I? I am unsure what to do next, whether to write in and express these feelings again or just to accept that life isnt fair.

you're entitled. Mea culpa!

I tried to be proved wrong (to Dd who already didn’t want to go) but the Southern parents in the train carriage getting off at Durham were loud and ostentatious. The topics of conversation were which ski resort is the best and who they know at different Oxbridge colleges. One-upmanship at its finest. They were friendly enough until they realised Dd wasn’t at private school and we weren’t getting off at Durham (we were going to further North). They were perplexed as to why we were in first class and yes, Durham was the insurance only as they were all, of course, going to get into Oxbridge! It was beyond parody.

www.dur.ac.uk/resources/ug.admissions/admindocuments/admincycle1516/1-4ApplicationsbySchoolTypeState-Independent.pdf

Big drop in state school applicants across the whole university from 2016 to 2017 (wonder why) but on the whole offers are in line with applications.

And here is by department

As you can see in 2017 63.6% of applications to classics & ancient history were from independent schools.

DH lectures at Durham (different subject) - In the time we've been here I've seen a difference in the mix of students. Twenty years ago it felt much posher/town and gown split, but seems less so now.
DH hasn't been involved in admissions for a while but did talk in the past about the outreach/widening participation efforts they put in.

As you can see in 2017 63.6% of applications to classics & ancient history were from independent schools.

Well there you are - admissions reflect applicants. No bias at all. State and private offered at same rate.

Pity OP didn't find that out before having a go.

Can I also just point out that the "Oxbridge rejects" are still likely to have A* A levels because only about 25% of those applying to Oxbridge get in. Where do you expect he other 75% to go if not highly regarded unis for their subjects (of which Durham is likely to be one).

Threads like these that bash Oxbridge and Durham only perpetuate the stereotypes and put some state school educated teens from applying which is a shame.

www.udemy.com/wheelock_latin/?ranMID=39197&ranEAID=SAyYsTvLiGQ&ranSiteID=SAyYsTvLiGQ-RZqIcu0Rb.XlMkFLz7r38g&LSNPUBID=SAyYsTvLiGQ

I haven’t tried it but there are some online courses for learning Latin. Sure it is harder doing it on your own, but perhaps doing a course like this and putting it on your personal statement may help you stand out. You have to be prepared to talk about what you learned etc as it would be fair game for interview. Also, read some translated Latin texts (eg Cicero, Tacitus, Livy for ancient history and Virgil, Ovid for Latin).

OKBobble I agree with you on your last paragraph and wanted Dd to not be biased but then we had the most stereotypical parents surrounding us on the train (see my post above). I had to admit defeat! I would not have believed it.

Titchy - I give up. I did not "angrily challenge" I waited until the end of the talk, until everyone was gone. I spoke calmly and respectfully.

Its you who has decided it was angry. That is not how I spoke to this person at all - or are you actually the person I spoke to, or were you in the room, or outside?

I have every right to ask questions and challenge people in institutions - higher education, government etc. I didnt shout, raise my voice, swear or anything else. In fact, my son said he thought I just came across as a bit disappointed by it all.

63.6% were from independent schools. Again kind of my point?

You dont have to agree with me, but please, dont make things up. You might shout at people when you raise an issue. I dont. its pointless and achieves nothing. As I have said, I hoped that by raising the issue directly that my comments might be taken into account in the future.

ZandathePanda I wasnt going to put this but as you have raised it here goes, the train back to London, 8 coaches, 3 of which were first class. Good for them that they can afford it! My DC thought this was hilarious.

Why shouldnt we challenge institutions, any institutions where there arent equality of opportunity. if Durham doesnt like being "bashed" then why doesnt it do more to widen access to its courses. We wouldnt be discussing this topic if they had done.

I'm surprised that your DC doesn't get the really incredibly obvious point that trains passing through Durham originate a good way North.

You don't seriously mean that you subjected your poor DC to your tirade? Why not at least let him exit the room before laying into the unfortunate tutor? It gets worse and worse.

Am assuming you travelled LNER - London to Edinburgh with a range of stops between 2/3 or 28zillion. Generally always have about 5/6 standard class and 3 first. Am fairly certain LNER didn't put on an extra amount of first class coaches just because it was Durham open day

I did not "angrily challenge" I waited until the end of the talk, until everyone was gone. I spoke calmly and respectfully.

Your op says you challenged her. Your op also said you have never felt so incredibly angry....

And as has been pointed out you were unjustified. State and private school applicants have the same offer rate in that department.

And I have suggested how to ask, and what to ask for, if you want to look further at this issue. You're welcome.

peaseblossom22

You mean students apply to Durham & not to an individual college? I interviewed at my chosen college, loved its quirkiness, applied & got in.

Oh look goodbyestranger another one making up what I said, how I said it and where I said it:

You don't seriously mean that you subjected your poor DC to your tirade? Why not at least let him exit the room before laying into the unfortunate tutor? It gets worse and worse.

This may be how you speak to people when raising an issue. it isnt my style at all. When did the word "challenged" equal tirade? Are you not able to have rational disagreements with people in a calm, clear and controlled manner then?

And you were on the platform at Durham then and saw the train roll in with 1st class empty but left full. Sorry, didnt spot you there.

Myrtle - I assumed the railway company is a business and responds to demand. My DC spotted this, not me, I was too busy sorting out our own travel plans.

Titchy - I am an adult. I can feel angry but not express it to other people. I dont have to shower them with my emotions. I still feel angry and I am still not shouting at people.

Thank you for your suggestion. I will e mail the department tomorrow. again in a calm, respectful and considered way. But, as I have already said numerous times, the admissions tutor understood and accepted the point I was trying to make.

have never felt so incredibly angry before.

That's pretty extreme emotion there mummymeister, given the situation and context. I think I'd almost certainly have more control.

63.6% were from independent schools. Again kind of my point?

64% of applications were from independent schools. 66% of students were from independent schools.

Looks pretty reasonable to me. They are pretty much taking applicants in the ratio they applied.

So is your issue the fact that 64% of applicants for Classics are independent schools then? Because that really isn’t something that Durham can control.

If you would like to change that:-

1. Campaign to increase the proportion of state schools that offer Latin and / or Greek.
2. Get involved in one of the many many schemes to improve access.
3. Stop saying things that will discourage state school pupils from applying to top universities.

Several things are at play here, I would guess. Firstly, there is bias towards privately educated kids. Secondly, privately educated kids are more likely to do the relevant subjects (I did ancient history at uni and did history, classics and Latin at a level). Thirdly, it’s a very very non-vocational degree, so you’re wracking up a shit ton of debt to do a degree that won’t take you anywhere in particular. Possibly these days this kind of course is increasingly unpopular with students without private means who need to make that debt work.

I’m honestly not sure I would stress over the bias to do an ancient history or classics degree. I think there are more relevant things to agitate over.

If I was in the department I might well avoid hurrying to make your DC an offer in that case, for fear that I'd get regular haranguing e-mails through his undergraduate years.

eh??? I was controlled. No one saw I was angry, no one. I am not a "toys out of the pram" sort of person. I can be very angry inside but dont feel the need to shout, scream, swear or anything else. whats the point it never achieves anything except a lost argument.

It's not in the least controlled to confront an admissions tutor in front of your son. I'll leave it there.

haranguing e-mails honestly goodbyestranger you have absolutely no idea what I am like. stop projecting please. What next "physically threatening" "got them in a headlock" subjected them to a milkshaking. Really, do re-read what I have said and understand, if you can, that it is perfectly possible to be angry and not show it, to challenge without being rude or offensive and to behave in an otherwise civilised way whilst making a point which the recipient themselves accepted to be true.

1. Campaign to increase the proportion of state schools that offer Latin and / or Greek.good idea
2. Get involved in one of the many many schemes to improve access. I am not in the education field so not sure how to do this but will look into it. Perhaps I can suggest our local school invites Durham in
3. Stop saying things that will discourage state school pupils from applying to top universities. No. its Durham which is deterring state school pupils not me. I am not going to keep quiet. They need to do more and people need to keep on at them to make sure that they do

goodbyestranger - clearly you dont read my posts. Not once have I said "my son". you leave it there then and thank you for your comments. very enlightening.

Durham to Exeter used to be an extra £10 to go first class as no changes. Utterly hilarious
I'm sure it is more now but there are a shit ton of deals.

Thanks everyone for some great suggestions and ideas of how to channel my feelings into some positive action. I will discuss them with my DC in the morning and take forward the ones that we agree on. Contacting DC's school about getting in some uni's certainly seems like something that may make a difference. The suggestions around learning a language on line arent relevant but I have other children that this may be helpful too.

Namechange - a useful tip. Not that I travel this route but will certainly look into the relative cost of first and second class travel for longer routes in future. we already have a two together rail card that has more than paid for itself with our round of uni visits.