The "Durham difference" - huge bias towards Private schools

[mummymeister]

I have just been to the open day at Durham Uni with one of my DC. I have other children in Uni and at various stages of education but have never felt so incredibly angry before.

My DC wants to study a subject in the Classics department. There was a last minute room change which meant we missed a talk and had 50 minutes to kill so I looked at some stats and wished I hadnt!

66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated.

When I challenged the admissions officer about this massive bias against state pupils she just ummed and erred with no real idea of a plan but kept saying that they were "working on trying to improve this"! Sorry but this is just not good enough imo. And to make it even worse this year the figure has gone up by nearly 2% so clearly what they have been doing has made stuff all difference.

They seem to put great store on reading all applications and personal statements so this is clearly where something needs to be done. I know many parents of children in private schools so I know how much time, effort and money is spent on making sure that the personal statement is perfect. No such help at our state school.

My DC will meet the predicted grades but honestly am just not sure I want them to be somewhere so incredibly elitist. It feels like a waste of a choice to me.

I guess I thought we were moving towards a level playing field and that the school you went to didnt really matter but clearly at Durham it does. I cant be the only parent that feels like this can I? I am unsure what to do next, whether to write in and express these feelings again or just to accept that life isnt fair.

@Mumoftwoyoungkids

Your posts have been very interesting and enlightening. It must be hugely frustrating for you to read threads like this.

I believe what she said, why cant you?

Because Admissions tutors don't generally have data at their fingertips. They're primed to answer questions on module choices, recommended reading, lecture/seminar structures etc. Not institution wide initiatives like WP. She gave you a general institution response - which is that yes Durham would like to widen access. But unless she has analysed the data from the last half dozen cohorts, applied it to the National context, which wouldn't be her role, she wouldn't be in a position to give you a course specific response that is robust.

Classics, Latin, Greek aren't offered at my DD's old state school for sixth form, whereas they're all on offer in the private school she moved to for sixth form. I suspect Durham hasn't got a preference for private students, it's just that a higher percentage have studied or attended talks with guests (which private schools often arrange) giving them more of an insight into different interests. Also, private schools will encourage their students to apply to higher ranked unis, not just to boost the amount of their students going to them, but also there is emphasis on a better uni gving you the advantage of a better job.

My DD prepared her own personal statement, it was her statement in her own words with no advice given by the school.

You might find it's a similar situation in other higher ranked unis. Your son is obviously very bright, so this aspect shouldn't affect him.

Oh dear Peaseblossom22 DD4 likes Collingwood precisely because of its bar :( (to be fair she also likes the fact that it's miles ahead of the other colleges in terms of sport, since she's sporty). It's up to the colleges how they spend their funds, although the terms of certain donations can dictate too. Collingwood can't be responsible for the lack of similar recent building projects elsewhere.

It's not clear from this thread that Durham has an ab inition course. Because of the lack of provision at school, that's what DD4 is applying for. At Durham it's a little more challenging than at St Andrews or Oxford or Cambridge as the course is only three years not four, so perhaps even fewer state school applicants apply. Exeter doesn't offer an ab initio course at all, so I'd expect their state school numbers to be through the floor - at least Durham is open for business on that front OP. Criticism here is pretty unfair.

@TonTonMacoute

Thanks. It is a fascinating subject. I sometimes can get a bit sanctimonious and preachy but I have mellowed in my old age! It is a bit frustrating but I think I thought the same thing before I went to Cambridge so I do just keep explaining things as best I can. I was at Cambridge during the “Laura Spence Affair” which was very upsetting at the time as it was obvious that huge amounts of damage to access was being done.

I understand that goodbye but honestly the disparaging of another college for ‘only being able to raise £33k ‘ and then spending it on combining a coffee shop and bar whereas ‘we can have both and can raise millions’ was not nice . Not one of the students there asked about the potential students they just rabbited on and on about how much money the college had and obviously it has had several huge donations from actually a contemporary of mine.

Interestingly we apparently couldn’t see the library as it was operating as a call centre to ring alumni for donations !

I know there are lovely people in Collingwood , I know some of them and they are delightful,as I am sure is your dd, and I am sure they realise how privileged they are.

Everything the master said about the collegiate system in the talk was valid; the ability to get involved at all levels, the sense of community, the support etc was correct but as an alumnus I felt that some of the behaviour and attitudes on show did not encourage a feeling of inclusivity, it was lost in the constant ‘in jokes’, and the hugging etc was a bit cringey and did seem to re enforce the idea of Collingwood and the rest ! Interestingly the girl from Hilde Bede talked about how all the colleges were great and you would love whichever you ended up in.

It is of course up to the colleges to spend their own money , but now that the colleges have no role in admissions and colleges will be allocated centrally it seems unfair that there is such a disparity in the facilities available to students for the same level of fees or are the JCR fees higher, if so that’s not awfully inclusive either.

Ds asked the chap showing us around if he had friends outside Collingwood and he said no most people stick with Collingwood why wouldn’t you 😮

My (comprehensive) state school did Latin GCSE and A level, Ancient Greek GCSE and Class Cov GCSE and A level, some of which I did. I was told anecdotally that if I applied to do Classics at an all-women college at Oxbridge I would walk in. I didn’t want to study Classics so I didn’t test it, but I do think those courses really are keen to increase state school intake.

I did get into Oxbridge to read another subject but I have to admit that I was put off applying to both Bristol and Durham because of their ‘Oxbridge rejects’ reputation. I guess the stereotype is being surrounded by posh kids who aren’t that brainy, or that’s what I thought at the time anyway. When I did go to uni, all the other kids in my year on my subject were private school and had applied to The Other Place the year before and then re-applied to the other one the year after. I wouldn’t have dreamed of doing that if I hadn’t get in and, again to my youthful mind, I thought they were all a bit too desperate and posh enough to afford a year out. Not much as judgemental as a teenager!

How many state schools teach Latin and Greek at A-level?

It’s not Durham’s fault

Peaseblossom22 I went to Durham too and also married a contemporary as so many Durham people do. I may well be older than you but when I was there the arts subjects and law were housed in the Palace Green library and if you wanted to see hugging then that was the place to go! Masses of hugging! All the time! And double kissing (something I've always avoided, even as a Pole, where triple kissing seems the thing). It isn't new.

I think the young people were probably just being enthusiastic and wanting people to like their college. I often put that sort of jarring stuff down to me getting old rather than the young being awful.

Collingwood must have got a lot posher since it was my neighbour. It is big sure but it had the highest state school intake lots of years.

her course is very much full of poshos

Wow tinkly. Do you think it’s acceptable for people to refer to oiks?

I wish some people would read my updates! My DC doesnt want to do greek or latin at Uni. It just so happens that the subject they do want to do sits within the classics department. they do not want to do a classics degree. Bigball - I review my ideas every time one of my children gets in to year 12 and starts looking at uni's. And as i have said ad infinitum on here if my DC dont want me to go then I wont. Its not some sort of competitive parenting thing that one persons dc is more able/capable/responsible/willing to go on Uni visits on their own.

So titchy, perhaps I should e mail in and ask for a comment as that would give time for the department to look up the relevant statistics and give a reasoned response?

At the end of the day this DC and indeed all of my DC will make their own choices.

Why should they give you a reasoned response mummymeister? You just had a knee jerk reaction without thinking things through. They've got better things to do with their time.

It wasn’t the students hugging and kissing it was the staff with the students and high fiving etc. and telling anecdotes at which the students kept rolling eyes and saying ‘ oh not that one’ etc etc

You probably had to be there 😊.it didn’t put Ds off but they had to be stopped because they were over running time wise and you could see quite s few raised eyebrows amongst the parents there .

@Namechangeforthiscancershit Collingwood has had over £7.5 million of donations from an alumni to refurb the social areas and equip a performance centre, gym and dance / Pilates studio. All very generous but I work for an organisation that receives grants and we often have to steer benefactors a bit.

Also, it's pretty irrelevant which of the small number of courses offered within Classics your DC want to do - the same points apply.

Dapplegrey how are those 2 terms equally insulting, have you ever heard of the concept of privilidge? I mean privelidge. Argh I can't spell it

That's obviously what you get at Durham - looked down on and not even taught to spell

I'm sad Collingwood has become really snobby, it was my old college (big then, but less wanky by the sound of it)

I wish some people would read my updates! My DC doesnt want to do greek or latin at Uni. It just so happens that the subject they do want to do sits within the classics department. they do not want to do a classics degree

Fair enough, but your OP is explicitly complaining about the apparent bias of the whole department, not just the course your DC is interested in studying.

66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated

Yes exactly. People are reading and ignoring because irrelevant to your original point.

That's a LOT of money to have donated. Wow.

Surely it sitting within the Classics department means a lot of people will do Latin/Greek/Classics modules as part of an Ancient History degree? Which they will have been taught at private school?

Well it is a really nice bar I think worth every penny.

Google classicsforall.co.uk who are trying to address the lack of teaching Latin and Greek in state (non grammar) schools

My children’s comprehensive taught Latin and classics, as did one other comprehensive in the area. Three others don’t. It limits children moving on to study these at university.
Latin tended to be the preserve of high achievers as it was taught as an add on subject. Most of those very high achievers didn’t necessarily choose classics. Some went to Durham from my eldest daughters year but more chose Oxbridge.
I’m now trying to remember the Pliny translation.

Surely it sitting within the Classics department means a lot of people will do Latin/Greek/Classics modules as part of an Ancient History degree? Which they will have been taught at private school?

Exactly! If you look at the stats for their 'bog standard' history it'll be very different.

OP you could ask, your entitled to ask under FOI. But if numbers are small, they may not be able to reveal them. If you're genuinely interested, rather than trying to prove you were justified in angrily challenging a member of staff, then ask for the last five years totalled together.

I went to a London comprehensive which still teachs classics today - as I looked it up. Only one other comprehensive school did when I was at school but doesn't any longer. As London schools are good in sending their kids to university including the top ones, if they aren't teaching classics or discouraging kids from doing it further ( like I was ) then how are universities going to increase their comprehensive school intake in that and allied subjects? They simply can't.