Elitism at Oxford

[piso]

I thought I would post this, not to put people off, but rather to make them aware that Oxford isn't the bastion of egalitarianism that it claims to now be.

My Dd is in her first year at a well known Oxford college. It is an old prestigious one, that has a reputation for being particular pro state school.

In her year group, there is a clear clique of London schoolers, think St Pauls and Westminster. They tend to bother with one another only. "Do you have a place in London?" "I'm from London, smugly the middle bit" "Oh you're so South Ken"

Then there are the old Eton boys, Radley boys etc who seem to also stick to one another.

Private dining societies are still a big thing in Oxford. Whilst apparently they are open to non private school kids, you have to be invited and considered suitable. Ergo, those who come from certain families, went to certain schools.

Favourite activities are skiing and horses. Where are you going skiing this vac? Oh you don't ski? "Our family have known each other forever, we always ski together at Klosters"

DD's neighbour for example is a third generation Oxonian. She proudly caresses her signet ring when talking down to others. She said in freshers week that she'd only consider dating someone from Eton, or Harrow if she had to as she wants a husband like her dad. This girl didn't even get the entry requirements for her course, but after some negotiation got in.

My point being, far from reverse snobbery, is that there still is clearly a large group of hugely entitled people at Oxford. Being born wealthy is certainly none of their faults (nor is it a problem!). DH is from the boarding school type of family, but there seems to be a high preponderance of rich, London type who are keen on being exclusionary.

Never have I been asked in a snobbish way where I went to school, but dd has numerous times, and not in an interested way; a way to see if you are suitable for friendship.

Some friendship groups at her college this year were very much decided based on appropriate background. You get a tick if you're from London. A tick if you went to a select few schools. A tick if your parents know of one another. Another tick if you have a lodge somewhere too.

two male students having a tutorial and one of them was wearing red trousers. The ultimate posh boy clothing! I did wonder if they have thought through the messages they send out to prospective students...

Perhaps they thought they have no right to police what students wear as long as it's decent, and it didn't occur to them that someone would stereotype an individual and write off an entire university based on the colour of a pair of trousers?

How would it sound if someone wrote two female students having a tutorial and one of them had a tattoo. The ultimate chav accessory! I did wonder if they have thought through the messages they send out to prospective students...

I thing that the fact that monolingual Brits sometimes have to slow down in order to have their point understood by someone for whom English is a second language is wonderful preparation for the real world. Better preparation would, of course, be for Brits to acquire fluency in other languages but as we all know that is not successive government policy.

Tbh, when I did my postgraduate (2016-17 not at Cambridge) it would be considered poaching for postgrads to go for first years (aka a bit perverted). And unless you already know the undergrads from when you were an undergrad it was a bit weird to have close mates within the undergraduates... postgrads view them a bit as children.

Much more likely to be friends with Masters and PHD students who tend to be a lot older (average seemed to be around 27 at my school) and mix with them in the post grad bars and societies.

goodbyestranger - I haven’t been to prepa myself so don’t feel qualified to dissect it. However, I know an awful lot of people who have and it isn’t an uplifting experience. It was eye opening to compare my DSSs after two years at university in the U.K. with their French contemporaries who ad just been through two years of prepa and concours. The DSSs were so much happier and had progressed so much further, intellectually, socially and personally.

Anna it is interesting that they use that image to promote the college when a student is wearing the archetypal toffs trouser of choice. I think it sends out a message which a lot of prospective students can’t relate to.

The point about the tutorials is that they can become utterly elementary. The other tutee and each tutor can't expect to become multi lingual in each and every language which might happen to crop up, that would be a ridiculous ask. Not knowing every language out there doesn't in any way imply not knowing more than one's native language. I'm not sure that you, having not spoken to your DSSs in English when it was wide open to you to do so, should castigate others on this one!

That's interesting about prepa. I know nothing at all about it.

Well other than that Emmanuel Macron didn't get into a Grande Ecole.

Why would I have spoken English to my DSSs? The important thing was my relationship with them and to make them feel secure, loved and understood. Which is what happened. Obviously they had huge passive exposure to English because they heard me speaking English to DD, my family and friends and there was lots of English around in the form of books/films/newspapers. That passive knowledge meant their English improved very rapidly indeed once they were immersed in English at university.

Emmanuel Macron went to Sciences Po and ENA.

Simply because you could have done and it would have been useful to them. I don't see that it would in any way have sent a subliminal message that you loved them less . I find it a little irritating (but only a little ) that my father, born and raised in Paris, chose not to speak to us in either of his two other languages, French and Polish - it would have been helpful.

Where you at piso? Come back to the thread, it’s an absolute riot! Not much to do with elitism, but then that’s not really why you started the thread, was it?

I meant for undergrad Maria, re Macron.

You are talking about things (being a stepparent, bilingualism) about which you know nothing and I know a great deal, goodbyestranger, so you just have to take my word for it. Not all goals are achievable simultaneously and your child raising priorities and mine are clearly very different indeed.

Grandes Écoles do not deliver undergraduate degrees, with the exception of Sciences Po.

Having said that, my DSSs do now of course speak/write fantastic English. The road to bilingualism is not linear. Significant passive knowledge is very beneficial for people who can subsequently engineer immersion experiences.

Sadly, this thread has confirmed that, at least among parents, elitism and prejudice are rife at Oxford.

Lucky escape!

Going back to some earlier points, I live in a part of the country not known for its affluence. There are no grammar schools or private schools in our LA. However, we are rural and live in a farming area, and horse riding is very popular. Many families forego nice houses, holidays etc to pay for the upkeep of a horse. So horse riding or owning a horse is not the preserve of the rich and snooty (or not where I live anyway). Our not very large village has two liveries.

I do wish you'd stop telling people what they do and don't know about Maria.

Where did Macron twice fail to get into as an undergraduate then? Was it Sciences Po?

Horse here also cut across any class divide.

TapasForTwo - yes, and skiiing is pretty popular among people who live in the Alps and who are not affluent.

It’s when individuals have a whole range of “bourgeois” leisure pursuits (riding AND skiing AND sailing AND tennis AND surfing etc) that affluence is at play.

TBH I meet some young people whose parents have kept them so busy practicing all those bourgeois markers of outward success that they’ve forgotten to educate them properly!

It was Normale (Ecole Normale Supérieure) that Macron didn’t get into. It’s super competitive to get in and not really a big deal not to.

We had a word for 3rd years (and, to a lesser extent, postgrads) who preyed on the fresher intake and it was not a complimentary one.

I also am not sure when this thread took a hard left into "females" who are somehow simultaneously lust-crazed and "hormonally challenged" and yet hard-nosedly selecting boyfriends they thought would be/end up rich. It's almost like someone has combined two negative yet mutually exclusive stereotypes of women in a misguided attempt to lionize their DSC...

Of course university is a "dating agency", or rather a place where young people meet each other, and always has been. But 1) like PPs I agree that students don't actually "date", they shag and go to the college bar together; 2) they generally work on the basis of who they fancy not who they think is tops in the future investment banker wars; 3) most of the "females" are focused on their own ambitions to change the world rather than getting their MRS degree. I hardly feel like this should even need saying in 20-fucking-19, and yet.

I’m not sure why relationships and career goals are mutually exclusive in your student world, SoHotADragonRetired, nor why you should be so angry at the idea that students might be looking for long term and committed relationships as well as studying. The casual shag and heavy drinking culture that some students engage in is nothing to be proud of. It’s actually pretty sad!

When OH was at university (not Oxbridge, but a high ranking RG one) a million years ago freshers week was known as f*k a fresher week

The French rallye system is looking more and more attractive the longer this thread goes on