Medicine 2018 part 3

[SomersetS]

Hope you all find this - didn't realise I took 999! Whoops.

I have indeed previously seen some detailed markings of both First and Second Year medics from a certain London school and I followed through to the Third Year of the same cohort to see what was happening there. If I can recall from memory, there was a 15% fail rate from the first year; a 10% fail rate in the second year; followed with another 15% fail rate in the third year. Some of these failed students had stunned me in the sense that they had only failed on one particular paper (OSCE) by just a single mark or two. All the other papers were passed with magnificent marks i.e. in the high 80’s etc.

Now, I mentioned that they had failed but it does not necessarily mean they had been kicked out as suggested by a previous poster. Needless to say, the majority, if not all of them, had had a resit and obviously passed it second time round. If anything, this indicates to me this particular London school is absolutely doing the right thing in that it tolerates no nonsense from any of its students. You better be up to scratch or off you go! The university is known to have failed Final year student(s) by a single mark and there was no coming back.

Getting a first choice deanery doesn’t mean anything; nor does it mean anything getting your first choice jobs in a deanery that nobody wants to go to. Of the two dozen or so (?) deaneries in the UK, only three or four of which are consistently over-subscribed. Almost all of these ones are in London. The other being the Severn in the west country. They are consistently over-subscribed not without a reason or reasons. No ‘average’ medic from any of the UK’s 34 medical schools have marks high enough to get into any one of the above-mentioned deanery.

I am amazed at some of the postings talking about the lack of sports, social life, accommodation, etc in certain medical schools. To all intents and purposes, if that’s what you are looking for, then clearly Medicine is not for you. You’d be much better off reading Geography, History, Classics and a thousand other subjects. DS for example, needed no lessons in appreciating what he would be giving up in life in order to embark on a successful medical career. With 8 senior family members who are consultants and senior practising doctors to advise him from Day 1, he was under no illusions as to what he had to give up. And it was particularly hard on him to give up many of his beloved sports – what do you expect from a lad who was House Captain of Sports in a particularly sporty world famous boarding school? His mum had just yesterday, with the hot sun above, washed 5 pairs of his colourful football/rugby boots from many years ago still with the thick winter mud stuck on them – boots he had left untouched since the second year of med school.

The sad fact of the matter is that many students with a little bit of academics behind them want to enrol onto a medical school. Little thought is given as to what a medic’s life entails. Talks of “grotty accommodation”, “fractured social life” etc seem to be more important than practising medicine. They go into medical school expecting a similar lifestyle like that from their teenage years, and worse still, they expect to out there in hospitals practising medicine like they are working in a comfortable office.

Until, of course, when they are really out there (say) in F1 when Medicine would slap them full in the face to give them a rude awakening! Yes, I’ve heard known of even male F1 doctors locking themselves up in the toilets crying from feeling completely lost and overwhelmed!

So much for friends and fractured social life . . .

peteneras my comments stand. It's no big deal. The word on the street down our way was exactly what I've repeated. It's not a big deal. That's just how it seemed at the time to a clutch of students at Birmingham who fed back to younger year groups. If they were wrong about their medical school, so be it.

Apologies if I misread your comments about KCL. Although again, it has a bit of a reputation. But if you say it's simply a 'no nonsense approach', that's cool (posting as I read).

Oh peteneras please do stop being so pissy about a DC you've never met. As far as I can tell his only offence seems to have been getting into Oxbridge and having a great time while also doing tolerably well.

I'm not going to name his deanery obviously but it is one of the very oversubscribed London one yes, and it was his first choice and he was extremely pleased a short while later to get his first choice of F1 and F2 jobs (he was very surprised that he got #1 and #1 but there you go) - anyhow, a really good way to round off six years in Oxford and now, having just spent ten weeks in New Zealand and Bali on placement, he can go to London and the bright lights where most of his non medic Oxford friends now are. It feels like a job both well done and well deserved.

And finally, it just seems to me (since I was the one who said it), if one can avoid grotty accommodation and sustain a good social life while also managing medical training, then why settle for less? After all, it's demonstrably possible.

I did n't mean to fuel any friction.
Peteneras your DS sounds really dedicated to his chosen career, he deserves to do well.
GoodbyeStranger many congratulations to your DS, from all that he is indeed a high achiever. I hope that he really enjoyed the time out of his elective

Look forward to hearing how their careers develop!

Gosh I hope this lovely thread is not going to go the way of the other medicine thread. I for one am grateful for all the helpful comments and advice I’ve been given. In my experience anecdotal comments are very helpful in wading through all the corporate stuff! Former students are obviously going to have a good idea about their course!

Thank you Oxfordmedic. Yes, he's sporting an excellent tan - a whole group of them were in New Zealand on placement and seem to have had time to do some really good roadtrips etc. together. It seems a very civilised thing to do after exams.

Yes I agree Movingmountains but I do see that the number restrictions mean there might be more to this than met the eye. I do find MN very useful for anecdote too....not so keen on that ghastly phrase about the plural of anecdote not being etc :)

". . .please do stop being so pissy about a DC you've never met. As far as I can tell his only offence seems to have been getting into Oxbridge and having a great time while also doing tolerably well."

Well, you've said so yourself, g-stranger, I don't know your DS and have never met him. Oxbridge take in more than 330 students annually for Medicine and I only know a small handful of them - usually DS's schoolmates and DC of my own personal friends - all of whom I'm happy for their successes. What then do you think I care two hoots about your DS or which med school he attends or for that matter, the rest of Oxbridge medics whom I don't know nor care about? In any case, I've said and proven in no uncertain terms many times over the years that Oxbridge Medicine isn't the best nor have they the brightest students there.

Movingmountains, apologies if this thread is going the way like other Medicine threads. It's just that I'd have to put right the misinformation and the boasts and lies that's consistently posted here by the same poster (albeit under different usernames) e.g. Birmingham and KCL deliberately cull their students; getting Medicine offers is a walk in the park; my DS has 6 A*s at A-Level; 6 years at med school is a breeze with loads of spare time for parties and extra curricular activities; he's got the top deanery and the top F-jobs, etc. If you believe all that, then you'll believe anything.

It's a slap on the faces for all you mums, don't you see?

To be blunt, the word was that fee paying students were being given priority over UK students.

May I just clarify how medical student numbers are set? I know this kind of rumour goes around but there is no way it can actually happen.

Up to 2017 entry, it worked as follows. The Department of Health set the number of medical graduates it wanted 5-6 years in the future. The Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) and counterparts in the devolved administrations allocated a certain number of entrants to each medical school to match the required number of graduates as closely as possible, accounting for a certain proportion of students failing to complete the course and considering the costs of training each student. Bear in mind that each medical student is funded by HEFCE and the NHS as well as by her/his tuition fees: the student actually pays only about a quarter of the costs. Of the number of places allocated, medical schools were allowed to recruit up to 7.5% of the total as international students, whose tuition fees were/are not capped at £9,000 pa and would usually be closer to £30,000 pa. So a medical school allocated 200 places by HEFCE could recruit a maximum of 200 students in total, of whom a maximum of 15 could be international. Recruiting more than 200 in total, or more than 15 international students, would result in signicant financial penalties; doing either of these things two years running would result in extremely severe financial penalties and to the number of allocated places for subsequent years being cut.

For 2018 entry, with the first wave of 500 extra places, most medical schools had their total number of places increased but the maximum number of international students remained the same as for 2017, i.e. if the hypothetical medical school above had its total number of places increased to 225 for 2018 it is still only allowed to recruit a maximum of 15 international students. If it can't fill its 15 international places it is no longer allowed to take on additional home students to fill them.

So, to summarize: medical schools are not allowed to give priority to international ("fee-paying") students over UK/EEA students; nor are they allowed deliberately to over-recruit to year 1 in order to perform a cull before year 2. All year-1 entrants have to be within the number of places allocated: the census date is in December of year 1 and any students leaving or failing after the census date may not be replaced. If a large number of students fail year 1, the medical school has lost their tuition fees for the remaining 4 years. They therefore only exclude students because they do not have the required academic ability or because they have demonstrated behaviours that make them unfit to be doctors, i.e. to protect patients, to maintain the medical school's reputation and to avoid sanctioning by the GMC (which has the power to revoke the accreditation of their degree if academically or professionally unfit students are being allowed to graduate). I have been around enough medical schools in enough capacities to know that patient safety, rather than money or expediency, is the absolute number 1 priority.

peteneras I think you downgraded DS's 6A to 5A because you told me the A* in his EP didn't count (it did for school PR purposes though!). Listen, it's seriously tedious you having endless catfights about other posters' DC. No-one cares really about who gets what grades or offers (except apparently you!) but if info about a DC emerges over threads then that's the way it is. It is absolutely possible for a DC to have a busy extra curricular and social life whether at Oxford or elsewhere and it's a good thing to know that, not a bad thing. It's essential that medical students keep sane, and that it doesn't become all-consuming. DS is extremely good at managing his time, which probably accounts for his good results more than anything else. He happens to have landed one of the two most over subscribed deaneries (I think the top position went one way last year and one way this) and he did get his top choice of job - although he e-mailed from Bali to say it was 'a random stroke of luck' because of course it depends who wants which set of rotations. I slightly object to 'lies' but hey, I'll put it down to dyspepsia or some other mild malady. We have no medics in the family so DS has found his own way. I enjoy learning more about the process through these threads, but knew nothing seven years ago. But stop the rants, please, they're so dull and there's never anything new.

Skiiltan thank you that. I did say that I had some doubts once I learned about restrictions on numbers when DS applied, and I guess I simply accepted what was being said at the time because it did seem that rather large numbers didn't proceed after Y1. But then those who lose their place probably do prefer to put a spin on things - understandably I suppose. It must be a serious blow.

Please can we keep this thread as support for our DCs and not get involved in anything else. It's been so lovely and we have held each other's hands al year. I don't care about all the politics and stuff. I just care about our kids doing well (& I still am rooting for those yet to get an offer).
If anyone wants to discuss other stuff please make your own thread.

To all our lovely regulars I am enjoying a large glass of wine after dropping DD at Spoons - I have thought this was a nice wine bar for ages. But tonight discovered it is actually short for Wetherspoons 😂. Classy bird I have.

Yes mumsneedwine I can't do more than ask again (the umpteenth request). I could of course decline to respond but I'm quite legitimately defensive of my DC, short of being anything remotely approximating to a tiger. But yes, quit all the competitive parenting stuff, which is all it really is - it's super boring.

Amazed that you don't know Spoons!!!! .

I know !!! I just thought she has been going to some new funky bar. Not some seedy pub 😂😂😂.
Ignore ignore ignore anyone who says our DC are not amazing. Cos they are. Even if my one is currently sitting in Wetherspoons wearing a top that shows her 36DDs off to their best. Before heading to a nightclub and crawling home at 4am. Just like every Medical student I ever knew at Uni. She's in advanced student training 😇🤪

Here Here Mumsneedwine! We were enjoying lovely glass of red in the garden until the thunderstorms and rain made an appearance

Mumsneedwine, you said exactly what I was thinking about this thread. Cheers to our amazing dc, about to start their exciting journey at uni. X

🍷to them all.

Oh and 🍷to us all too. It's been a journey I am v glad I've shared with you all.

DD widening participation programme which she did for 5 years was mainly run by 1st and 2nd year med students and at the time I remember DD coming telling me about their lives and it certainly involved having a social life including sporting activities.

I would assume that similar to secondary and 6th form education there most be an array of different pupils getting top marks including those who will be spending all their spare time studying whilst others will mainly get down to it at the last minute and do as well. Some go to lectures and will both understand the content and retain it there and then whilst others will need to go over their notes once or twice.

Some will be stressed, some will be revising for long hours and some will manage to have plenty of fun too.

Swingofthings you are exactly correct - of course it will be no different to school. Certainly the students we had talks with at Sheffield we’re doing all manner of extra-curricular activities. In fact this was sensed as being very important by the lovely Julian! So if the course director is telling students to keep up with sports etc then I’m sure our DC will not have to give up their sports and social lives to succeed as doctors.

I reckon a striking legacy of Roger Bannister was to show that it's possible to do a morning shift at (I think) St Mary's in London and then nip up to Oxford to run a four minute mile. They've absolutely got to balance their lives - that's what the questions about extra curriculars are about in interviews. Not to see whether you excel at anything else, but to check that you have a good method to let off steam (and partying, clubbing or (even!) going to Spoons are just as acceptable as running a four minute mile. Possibly less impressive.... but it's just a case of something, whatever that thing is).

Mumsneedwine, funny about 'Spoons', I only realised this year, now that DD and many friends are 18! Came home on Friday after a lovely day in London watching neice in a two person play in tiny pub theatre, followed by a wander round Tate Britain to a lovely gang of hardworking sixth formers drinking Pimms in the garden, hosted by DD - making the most of a sunny Friday early evening before more studying! The school even emailed to say let them have a life in between some serious studying.

Since DD started looking at medicine I have quizzed medical students, including some I have known since they were 5, quizzed newly qualified F1 (who diagnosed DD's coeliac) and friend who runs her own GP Practice, they all work hard, one at one point said 'don't do it, follow another science based path' - she was feeling a bit disillusioned with the NHS at that point, having seen a friend get a very well paid grad. scheme in the Pharma industry! Despite that all still say the hard work is worth it and all find time for down time and a social life. The reality is it would be extremely difficult, in most cases impossible to play a BUCS sport at first team Premier Level, but that doesn't mean sport needs to be abandoned!

The posters implying some element of naivety about what is to come etc. may have a point, but I don't think any of us or our DCs have rose tinted glasses - DDs week of commuting to intensive care in a cash strapped London hospital, witnessing death, violence, surgery, crying relatives, stressed staff etc. didn't put her off - at that point I stopped giving her reasons not to apply.

I think we have all seen our DCs mature during this process - those that make it, have 5 more years to reflect and mature into the role . They all have my admiration and I am just relieved and thankful that some young people want to be doctors.

Well DD poured herself into bed at 4am and was up at 7 to go teach horse riding to kiddies. How I don't know. Think being a doctor requires an ability to function on v little sleep so she's got that part sorted. Being a rounded grounded human sounds vital to me if you're going to be a good doctor. DD has already looked at the annual cost for the sports centre at Nottingham as she likes the look of the pool (& sauna) and the climbing wall.