Worried about DS's first choice uni -WWYD?

[IsThisForReal]

DS didn't get his first choice (Oxbridge), but he has four other offers though. Three are at well-known, well respected universities. Two of them consistently rank in the top 4-6 across all the league tables for his subject. The third is typically about 10/11.
His fourth offer ( uni Z) is usually somewhere between 12 to 25 in the rankings. It has a good reputation for his subject, in fact that department is something of a flagship for the University. DS spent a week on a course there over the summer and had a good time.
Since then they have been bombarding him with marketing materials saying how much they hope he will join them next year.
Now he is saying he thinks this will be his first choice, but DH and I are concerned that he is not making a rational, informed decision but is being influenced by the fact he has spent time there and "knows " it.

I know league tables aren't the most important thing, but I can't help feeling that DS can do better than this university. The typical grades achieved by people who start the course are much lower than his predictions – think ABB rather than AAAA. Uni Z has a reputation for accepting grades several grades lower than their offer. I'm worried that he will be bored or not find the course challenging enough, or not find like minded individuals.
Unfortunately he is being quite arsey about it though, and DH and I don't want to back him into a situation where he chooses this university to 'spite us'.
Of course his decision is important, but we want him to make it based on good, rational reasons not just a gut feel from a holiday placement.
We still have some offer holders days to go to, but DS has already dismissed one of these unis as being 'too cold and wet'.

WWYD?

Is it possible to know what university Z actually is? any clues?

You need to think about who is delivering his lectures. Ideally these would not be hourly paid lecturers on zero hours contracts. This is an abusive model that tends to result in high turnover because HPLs are not paid enough to make a living. Check out this UCU report. This article speaks to the kinds of experiences that HPLs are living. As an academic researcher I'd want my kid to be taught by staff that are able to really invest in teaching, and who can hone their skills with departmental support.

He is now settled and enjoying it and that's all we want for our kids isn't it?

I want mine to have some kind of return on the money it costs in the form of good employment prospects (not saying do a vocational degree, btw, one of mine does History) and lots of stimulation from sport/Arts/other interests as well.

I think teenagers are very loyal. Once they have decided to stick with something more unusual it is quite difficult to persuade them using worldly means (ie the idea of earning more money or being more important if they go to a certain uni, or it being more academic prestigious) Could you try a tactic to do with what he actually liked about Z, ie societies/activities also offered at top 3, and in fact their lack of importance, supposed "grandness". In other words, their friendly homely atmosphere as testified by reviews in what uni. He wants to feel welcome, find evidence of that elsewhere.

Yes, he has given 'reasons' but I just don't think they are very compelling/ convincing.

But presumably he does? It’s starting to sound like you don’t value his views unless they concur with your own.

Way to put extra pressure on him in his A2 year

You need to think about who is delivering his lectures. Ideally these would not be hourly paid lecturers on zero hours contracts. This is an abusive model that tends to result in high turnover because HPLs are not paid enough to make a living. Check out this UCU report. This article speaks to the kinds of experiences that HPLs are living. As an academic researcher I'd want my kid to be taught by staff that are able to really invest in teaching, and who can hone their skills with departmental support.

This is a great point. It is an issue in the US too - non tenured and very poorly paid professors being used to deliver most of the teaching. It is a question we asked at every college visit.

Agree with knitting - There is more to Uni than the course.

Is he into sport / music / art / travel / politics ?
What are the clubs and societies and activities at each of the remaining choices ?
What is the 2nd year accommodation like have heard recent horror stories about living 'out' at Warwick
Look beyond the course and think about each location as a place he will want to live for the next few years and maybe the rest of his life like I and many of my friends did

See if you can turn him gently with positives about the others
rather than negatives about Z

And if in doubt, fall back on the Spanish restaurant approach
(the bad ones have a guy outside grabbing customers, the good ones do not need to)

Dirtywindows - He is now settled and enjoying it and that's all we want for our kids isn't

I certainly want my kids to be happy, but I also want them to feel fulfilled in life and that they haven't 'sold themselves short.' Only time will tell whether your DS's choice was a good one, or whether he should have stuck to his original plan.

The problem is that you can never tell what 'might have been' so in my opinion you should just maximise your chances along the way.

People don't like to acknowledge it, but networks, contacts and connections are still one of the biggest factors in success. With so many graduates out there these days recruiters have the luxury of choice and many of them use the 'top brand' unis as a means of filtering applications to save time. Big law and accountancy firms still choose to visit just a small number of careers fairs at selected universities.

I think we owe it to our children to encourage them to be ambitious for themselves. As a previous poster said, it sometimes seems as if we have lost sight of ambition these days?

It seems like you are discounting his choice because you feel he hasn’t done his due diligence.

Why don’t the two of you sit down together and see how much of that information you can get from the internet, and plan a second trip to the school to meet with the right person to get the other answers? Together rather than telling him to go do it alone.

I did this with my dd when she was looking at unis. She and I made a list together of what was important (ties to industry, opportunities for undergraduate research, etc) and we found the answers. I was surprised at the uni she picked (crappy weather, rather small, too rural) but 100% supportive. It was the right choice for her and midway through her second year she is thriving.

TiP - yes, the Spanish Restaurant analogy - perfect anecdote!

Does he love his subject? If so the contents of the course will matter to him.
DS was torn between his five offers, he leaned towards the one where he was made to feel most welcome at the open day but the course was better at the campus uni he didn't like much.
I helped him by delving into the five different courses and printing off in great detail without identifying them. He then ranked the courses. Clear winner was the one he hadn't liked much. He went to their offer day, saw it in a whole new light and is happy there.

Devils advocate OP - if ds does go to x and is one of the students with highest grades in his class, is there a good chance he could distinguish himself, e.g by being one of the few who get a 1st? A 1st from a still good uni is usually better than a 2.1 from a very slightly better uni in terms of standing out from the large field. Lots of employers will be aware of the "top 2/3/4" unis but after that most won't really know the difference between say Bristol vs Edinburgh, or Cardiff vs Birmingham or whatever other of the top 20 RGs.

Whereas if he goes to one of the other universities it's likely he will be one of many who go in with high a levels, and one of the 60-70% that come out with a 2.1?

Does your son want to be an accountant or a lawyer ?
One day the day will come when he'll be able to totally ignore you and do his own thing.
If you shove rather than support, that day will come soon.

Hip - yes, this is pretty much the plan anyway.
We're not even talking about unis until after mocks in Jan, then we'll have a discussion about things to look for in offer holder visits.
There will probably be more chat at school by then anyway as everyone will have their offers by then.

TiP - yes, the Spanish Restaurant analogy - perfect anecdote!

Except where everything they’re all good - like the Bangladeshi restaurants in the east end, all of which have someone outside

If he wants to be an accountant or lawyer then the institution probably does matter in that going to a top university will more easily get you a foot in the door, and connections help as well.

If you are worried about him having regrets abour unfulfilled potential, then if he has a creative or practical bone in his body, urge him not to go into law or accoutancy.

People tend to fall into those jobs who are academically bright, good at maths and/or English but are otherwise a bit of a generalist without a particular passion or skill. If he has a different passion or skill, it's almost always better to try that instead.

Plus the fact if he comes out lumbered with debt he could end up trapped into a high earning, stressful job which he hates. A good job in finance or law is not always what it's cracked up to be.

I had a long-running argument with DD b/c I wanted her to attend local 6th Form. She applied there but only as insurance. Her reasons seemed lame. Not until parent questions evening did I realise how bad a fit it was for DD. The whole tone of their package didn't fit with what DD is like.

End of 6th form parent questions, Friend (who has a personality like DD, hadn't said a word to me until that point, is mother of DD's BFF who will go local) exclaimed "[DD name] isn't coming here, is she?!!" Friend easily saw what I was blind to until that evening.

Do you have any friends that your son thinks is cool who may be able to have a chat. Our friends' DS considered DH and me to be 'cool'. He asked us between the 2 he had narrowed down to and listened to our advice ( which incidentally was the same as his parents) but he listened to us because her perceived us to be cool ( as a slightly younger professional couple) than his parents (a head teacher and an engineer) because after all they were just his parents!!

MN is a strange place isn't it? Everyone seems to be assuming that all the views, thoughts and opinions I've voiced here I've also shared with DS.
I haven't!
There's been no shoving or forcing of opinions ( or any of the other things I've been accused of) Yes, I've asked him questions and been surprised by the answers, but the whole point of this thread was to discuss it all in another place, away from the real situation to get some different perspectives.

I've been surprised how many people consider a child's uni choice to be 'none of your business' and leave their DC to their own devices. That's not been my experience amongst our friends and family. I'd say it was the last major parenting task - to help them make informed, sensible choices and launch them off into the world. Perhaps even more so if we are going to be funding it...

Anyway, the tide may already be turning - DS has just come home and had a rant about yet another piece of junk mail from Uni Z which arrived today:
"Honestly mum, why are they wasting so much money on this - they must be really desperate..."

Apparently someone got on the uni Z course through clearing last year with BBB

Why the shocked face? Because BBB is not a good set of grades?

I've been surprised how many people consider a child's uni choice to be 'none of your business' and leave their DC to their own devices. That's not been my experience amongst our friends and family. I'd say it was the last major parenting task - to help them make informed, sensible choices and launch them off into the world. Perhaps even more so if we are going to be funding it...

My parents didn't have a clue about university as none of my family had been to university. Some of us have to decide by ourselves and don't do too badly.

But you may not have been paying £9250 a year.

You'll be paying that pretty much everywhere though. The main decision would be whether to go down that route at all or whether there is another way to study and train while earning money and not getting into huge debt.

I'd say it was the last major parenting task

Oh my god, this isn't helpful to the thread but if you genuinely believe the above I feel sorry for your son!! I'm 24 and I still receive a range of support from my parents, thank goodness. I guess I'm lucky but I can't imagine not supporting my future children in the same way should they require it.

I get you want the best for your son, but I don't think 'best reputation' for a uni = best fit for the potential student. I say this as someone who was predicted AAA in A-Levels but only achieved AAB as I had severe mental health problems. I had an offer from Oxbridge which I missed by approximately 2 UMS points, submitted mitigating circumstances application and was still denied my place, despite my friend who went there knowing many, many students from private schools who massively missed their offers and were none-the-less accepted onto the course, ostensibly without needing to submit any mit circs. Clearly that seriously unjust experience clouds my view of the particular universities and I now remain quite pleased I dodged a bullet as I clearly would not have been welcome there or supported as I needed to be.

As a result I went to my insurance university, many of my peers achieved far lower than me at A-Level, that made literally zero difference to my experience, although it's not really something you talk about much once you're there. My university is not an ex-poly but nor is it Russel group and at the time it was just about top 10 for my subject but has since massively gone down the league tables! Still, I had a great time there and had some absolutely amazing teaching and pastoral support. I suspended my studies at one point, did a year abroad, and just graduated with first-class honours - for someone with my severe, chronic mental health problems it's something I would never have imagined happening and I massively credit various staff at my university for that achievement. 4 weeks post-graduation I was in full-time work for a large, international law firm - on a low salary but in the north as that's where I'm from and wanted to return despite knowing my job opportunities would be limited. But I could have gone to Oxbridge and I still would have returned to the North and then my options for jobs would still be exactly the same as there just isn't the kind of jobs here that there are in London so it would have made zero difference.

Wow that was rambly, anyway I know you want the best for him, but it's just impossible to know how his life will pan out, it's impossible to know what other decisions he will make, it's impossible to know the ins and outs of uni life at any uni until you are there. One of things that was really important to me and my experience of uni was the city I went to uni in too. It's not a huge city but a city none-the-less in the midlands and it played a large part in my experience of a student as it was very multi-cultural and also affordable, with lots going on - I did volunteering, trade unionism, attended various festivals etc without any uni involvement at all. It depends what kind of person your son is and what his interests will be and none of that can be known prior to going to uni. I think uni is always a huge gamble regardless of where you go.

It sounds like Z is one that no onw who wants a high paid job would touch with a barge pole but seems to have conned people into thinking is okay. Does he have a career plan? If so can he check which universities someone about 3 years after graduating in the job he wants to do went to and work back from that to make his choice? If Z is not that good at all perhaps say you will help him with university costs only if he picks a top 10 university.