Worried about DS's first choice uni -WWYD?

[IsThisForReal]

DS didn't get his first choice (Oxbridge), but he has four other offers though. Three are at well-known, well respected universities. Two of them consistently rank in the top 4-6 across all the league tables for his subject. The third is typically about 10/11.
His fourth offer ( uni Z) is usually somewhere between 12 to 25 in the rankings. It has a good reputation for his subject, in fact that department is something of a flagship for the University. DS spent a week on a course there over the summer and had a good time.
Since then they have been bombarding him with marketing materials saying how much they hope he will join them next year.
Now he is saying he thinks this will be his first choice, but DH and I are concerned that he is not making a rational, informed decision but is being influenced by the fact he has spent time there and "knows " it.

I know league tables aren't the most important thing, but I can't help feeling that DS can do better than this university. The typical grades achieved by people who start the course are much lower than his predictions – think ABB rather than AAAA. Uni Z has a reputation for accepting grades several grades lower than their offer. I'm worried that he will be bored or not find the course challenging enough, or not find like minded individuals.
Unfortunately he is being quite arsey about it though, and DH and I don't want to back him into a situation where he chooses this university to 'spite us'.
Of course his decision is important, but we want him to make it based on good, rational reasons not just a gut feel from a holiday placement.
We still have some offer holders days to go to, but DS has already dismissed one of these unis as being 'too cold and wet'.

WWYD?

I know of several parents of children the same age as my two who have talked seriously to their offspring about not taking an easy offer for fear of being intellectually bored and possibly dropping out. It is a valid concern. If you are stuck with people who aren’t on your wave length it can be lonely, too.

I had no idea that nursery was such an important part of an academic CV, though, need 😆

He has visited all the universities, and will go back to the ones he has offers for again. I do think people think I'm being more controlling than is really the case. At the moment I'm just concerned that he is not comparing like with like. He is judging University Z (or A,B, C whatever you want to call it!) based on a third-party summer course that might bear little resemblance to the actual uni one.
Good point about Oxbridge – he might still be reacting to that rejection, although he seems fairly chilled to be honest.
Of course I can't force him to go somewhere he doesn't want to (and nor would I) but I do think it's a parent's responsibility to guide their children (even as young adults) and offer advice. At the moment I'm frustrated that he hasn't done any of the "due diligence" research that I would've expected and seems to be making superficial decisions based on stupid things like how small the beds were and the fact that it was raining on the day we visited a uni.

I wonder if it makes a difference if parents are expecting to pay? I can imagine they feel they ought to have more of a discussion. DS may not have to incur a debt, but perhaps that's why he's not more motivated - undervaluing what he perhaps perceives to be free?

I'm sure our own experiences influence parents' thoughts on this. I escaped a grim inner city comprehensive and somehow got into a top university (the first in my family ever to go to uni) As a result I managed to get into a highly paid career and DS has had significantly more opportunities than I ever had. Perhaps that's why I'm concerned that I think he might be about to piss it all away?

As long as the course is highly ranked at the uni, of course he should go to the best one he can. Anything else is nonsense. Only on MN do people say otherwise. Employers not only look at what uni you went to, they actively come recruiting with more efforts put into the higher rankers.

It may be that he hasn't done the due diligence yet because he is feeling a bit overwhelmed by it all. That and the Oxbridge rejection. That and mock exams and/or A level stress. All the more reason to leave him to it.

He still has another few months and more uni visits until he has to push the UCAS button. Still plenty of time for his thinking to change.

I wish my parents had taken more of an interest when I was applying for uni.

I ended up at a mediocre place doing a mediocre course which ultimately got me nowhere, apart from a lot of debt. I could have done so much better if I'd had a little guidance.

OP you need to get the balance right between advising and supporting versus knowing when to pull back a bit. As much as I wish my parents had helped me make a better decision, if they had presented me with a spreadsheet and an in depth analysis on each institution, I would have massively dug my heels in

SleepingStandingUp - this is another weird thing I don't trust about uni Z- they are making really high, Oxbridge level, offers (A*AA) but then saying at offer holders day 'if you miss it, give us a call' I had a chat with one of the admissions people afterwards and she said they've made the standard offer a grade higher this year to 'reduce the no of applications' but that if they only took the people who got the standard offer then they'd 'never fill up the course' WTF is that about?
As a result, DS would have to put this uni first with higher ranking (4 & 6) unis second ( AAA offer).
Apparently someone got on the uni Z course through clearing last year with BBB

This is so hard for you OP. Bottom line your DS has to decide as he is funding himself (loan, I presume) and it's none of your business.

However they are kids and they sometimes don't get it fully ... how can they? They've no experience of life yet.

My daughter started uni 12 weeks ago. She refused to consider anything which wasn't red brick/Russell Group and was adamant about it. She said she didn't want to jeopardise where she can choose to go for her MA.

She is very happy where she is and it's RG. But I was lucky that she took this attitude and if she hadn't, I don't think there is anything that I could have done.

It might simply be that in making offers they take the personal statement into account. So if you miss the offer (which will be in line with predictions), relevant experience etc may yet swing a final decision , if you make that call.

Let him make his own choice. I'm currently studying for a highly-respected MA at a top 10 RG uni. I didn't get excellent A Level grades and went to a uni that's fairly far down the league tables. If I had my time again, I would still have chosen that uni for my undergrad. The teaching was second to none.
It really is not your choice to make.

Depends on the subject / field

I worked in publishing / media and all of my colleagues on my level and higher had degrees and it mattered not one bit where they got it from. In fact, I saw managers rate candidates based on grade achieved over where they went (whereas personally I'd say that a 2:1 from an excellent uni is better than a first from a less good uni / a uni with lower entry standards and possibly lower standards overall).

You need to get the balance right between advising and supporting versus knowing when to pull back a bit.

This is so true!

Running where you study at makes no difference where you get into for postgraduate study, as long as you've got at least a 2:1 or a first, subject dependent, and as long as you can provide examples of excellent pieces of work and good references in your application.

Again, it depends so much on the subject. Some courses recognise that the skills and abilities of their potential students is far more important than whether they perform well under exam pressure. The person they let in with BBB may have shown exceptional promise in the subject / on "test days" (for all of my uni offers I had to attend interviews and workshops so they could assess our abilities).

I went to a very good university (top 5-10) but turned down a marginally better uni in terms of league tables as I didn't like the set up as much (quite an isolated campus in a smaller city vs a university in a bigger city), thought the course structure and facilities at the uni I chose were more suited to me, and I really liked the staff. There are many more factors than league tables, and being somewhere you actually enjoy being and feel comfortable will lead to a better end result.

I really don’t think you should judge a university on their recruitment tactics. My (at the time) top 5 university accepted me with lower grades. They take a view. A much lower-ranked university wanted me to go for an interview; I said no, they promptly offered me a place instead. They’re trying to make money, at the end of the day.

But I do think choosing a university is like choosing a home - it has to feel right. And if it doesn’t, you won’t be happy there and won’t make the most of it - even if it were Oxbridge.

Abra1d, I don't disagree! Except that looking back it was luck that the head of the Nursery was feisty enough to bellow at the prep when they rejected him, saying they had made the wrong decision, and so got him re-assessed. (Though how anyone could tell aged three is beyond me.) It was chance that had us living in Central London, and change then that DC ended up in very focused and international Central London private schools. It seems to have done them no harm, though they do have contemporaries who have perhaps been over directed and over-pushed, some of whom seem to be either unhappy or in rebellion.

I do agree with pallisers about the first generational issue. I remember having to bite my tongue when a colleague's very bright son was persuaded by the school to choose three non-facilitating A level subjects (the boy had wanted to study maths and had good GCSEs!), and then headed off to his local University for a slightly Noddy degree. The dad was so proud he was at University.

Thedriftofstars, what evidence do you have? I can't see any way you would get on a good economics Masters with a 2.1 from Bradford say. Course contents counts for a lot for many competitive quantitative Masters degrees.

Apparently someone got on the uni Z course through clearing last year with BBB shock

You don't know the circumstances of the BBB, though. The student may have had family bereavements, illness etc.

You would clearly be shocked by the fact that Oxbridge occasionally take students with substantially dropped grades, taking into account individual circumstances.

where you study at makes no difference where you get into for postgraduate study, as long as you've got at least a 2:1 or a first, subject dependent, and as long as you can provide examples of excellent pieces of work and good references in your application.

This is absolutely not true for all subjects. A first in Maths/Physics from Oxbridge or a top RG university is valued far more than similar grades from a lower ranking university. You won't get into masters programmes in such subjects at top universities without a very high first from a lower ranking university. You will also be much less likely to be considered for funded PhD positions.

As need writes, the course content and depth varies hugely in quantitative subjects.

Unfortunately as you've not said either the course or the university, it's a bit difficult to judge whether yabu! If you're talking about French and History at Leeds (ABB, Russell Group) yabu. On the other hand if you're talking about Engineering at Staffordshire (ABB) you might have a point...

Needmoresleep I was referring to a PP who was talking about her daughter studying an MA course. I don't know about MSCs or BSCs, my discipline is arts based.

You would clearly be shocked by the fact that Oxbridge occasionally take students with substantially dropped grades, taking into account individual circumstances.
With bells on

let alone contextual offers (I love them as my postcode is atrocious according to HEFCE )

I'm a university lecturer, educated in very prestigious institutions, have taught in a mix of prestigious and not prestigious ones.

A few things to consider.

• In my direct experience, teaching has been of a significantly higher level in less prestigious institutions. All the very prestigious institutions I've been in seemed to be making little effort on teaching and counting on their highly able intake to cover this fact. For students who are in the bottom half of the intake of a really top institution (ie. very good but not exceptional students) this can be damaging.

• Prestigious institutions are much better as springboards for prestigious or difficult to get into careers, but such careers are not for everybody. On many other metrics a less prestigious institution may well be better.

• There's no such thing as a "best" university. There's a best university for a given student. Some students thrive on the challenge of prestigious competitive institutions. Some find that pressure destructive, and this is as much a question of temperament as ability.

TiP, this suggests automatically selecting a course with more demanding entry requirements, if a student is able to qualify for a contextual offer.

Like the thread discussion, the answer is "it depends". Clearly if you have huge potential, and ambition, are prepared to work hard, then go for it. If you have worked like blazes at a good school to achieve the contextual offer, which the lottery of a post code qualified you for, and don't fancy being towards the bottom of the cohort, then don't. Especially in a quantitative subject.

needmore
I call it "just be willing to aim high"
Something selective school kids from naice areas get all the way through education.
A kids from round here without pushy parents will have lower aspirations .
Contextual opens doors if the UCAS form is set up right

But for OP :
If a kid is really happy at Uni and does well on the course and gets involved with societies and activities and comes out ready to roll career wise
surely that is better as a parent
than forcing them into a uni they do not like ??

FWIW DD decided she did not like the Bath campus after about 45 seconds. Even an unconditional would not have persuaded her to go there !

On the other hand if you're talking about Engineering at Staffordshire (ABB) you might have a point...

No, she wouldn't. Ex polys are fantastic at vocational courses and no-one would care what institution you went to in most industries you could work in. Though for something like that DC might be better looking at apprenticeships and saving on university fees.

My DS had a confirmed deferred place at a very good uni as he went off and had his gap year. Then literally a couple of months before he was due to start he decided after a couple of fun weekends at a certain place that he wanted to go to an unknown to us uni there instead. Despite our initial shock we decided it was his choice despite never having visited this uni. He rejected his confirmed place and reapplied to ucas. As the required grades at the new uni were much lower than he had he got in. He is now settled and enjoying it and that's all we want for our kids isn't it?