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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Oxbridge 'favours' students from London and South-East

487 replies

jeanne16 · 21/10/2017 08:21

Apparently 48% of students come from London and the South-East with Richmond being a particular hotspot. Should we be surprised by this and accuse the universities of bias? The way I see it is Richmond is full of extremely intelligent people who presumably have intelligent children. They then have the money and resources to support them in all sorts of ways, such as buying books, reading to them, private schooling and/or tutors when needed, sport and other activities.

I really don't see how this is the fault of the universities.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 26/10/2017 21:22

I suspect that places like Imperial and LSE have eye watering levels of applications from all over the world

Yes, both of these universities seem far more concerned with attracting non-UK students and their fees.

www.imperial.ac.uk/admin-services/strategic-planning/statistics/trend-analysis/student-nationality/

A bar chart on the LSE website reveals that only about 22% of the total student population at LSE are UK-domiciled undergraduates.

Which University World Rankings Table is relevant by the way?
The Times Higher Education Table for 2018 lists Oxford 1st, Cambridge 2nd and LSE as 25th in the world.

YellowPrimula · 26/10/2017 21:24

As I understand it yes they do have weekly supervisors in Physics on a 1:2/3 basis for which they have to prepare do problems etc these are held in college or though sometimes not their own, in addition to lectures and practicals , Teaching also happens on Saturdays .

When I talk about different I mean different in its simplest meaning ;just like an apple is different to a pear , I am not saying one is better than the other although you certainly get more access to teaching for your £9000., but rather that they are completely different products and offer a different undergraduate academic experience.Perhaps it would be more sensible to acknowledge this and just remove Oxbridge from the UCAS system altogether .

Ta1kinPeece · 26/10/2017 21:27

Perhaps it would be more sensible to acknowledge this and just remove Oxbridge from the UCAS system altogether .

And return to the UCCA days of the mid 80's when they had a totally separate application system
Fine,
but they can also leave State undergrad funding at that stage
( as Harvard and Princeton already have of course) Grin

Clavinova · 26/10/2017 21:40

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics

Personally, I think we should be ecstatic that Oxford and Cambridge still take roughly 80% of their new undergraduates from the UK.

Ta1kinPeece
If I remember correctly, the 'computer said no' at one of the RG unis your dd applied to (for the course she applied for) - an interview/test might have earned her the place.

YellowPrimula · 26/10/2017 21:44

I applied through UCCA in the early 1980s so I am not sure when it was separate , although at that time the polytechnics had a different system so you could and I did apply to five universities and five polytechnics , I don't recall that they did not have state funding .Why should separate systems of centralised admission a mean no state funding to be honest that sounds rather petty.

Durham also interviewed all applicants in those days, it was definitely my interview which got me the place as I had less than perfect O levels but I knew my subject and was enthusiastic , I wish more places had interviews not less.

On the physics supervisons and amount of one to one teaching the link below clearly shows the intensity of the Cambridge course in terms of tutor and teaching involvement and the inability to coast .To be honest I am not sure the intensity is good for mental health and I know a few who have really struggled with the pressure .But I still don't think there are any other universities in England and Wales that use this teaching method so it is different .

www.natsci.tripos.cam.ac.uk/students/new-students/howhard

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/10/2017 21:49

They didn't have a totally different application system. I applied in 1978-9 and Oxford and Cambridge went on the UCCA form. In those days they set their own entrance exams which were Nov/Dec, IIRC, followed by interviews for those with the best scores. They were also starting to make conditional offers as an alternative. Those who got a place through the exams got the 2 Es offer mentioned above.

I know something first hand about admissions in a Russell Group university. It varies a lot between departments (at least, it does at my old place), but the IT systems in use nowadays make it possible to generate offers with absolutely minimal human involvement in the process. If the predicted/achieved grades are in the right range and there are no warning signs in the reference, out goes the offer.

Most universities and departments want to do it like this because it's all guesswork how many firm acceptances they'll get, how many insurances etc etc. Oxford and Cambridge are in the happy position of knowing that almost all their offers to UK applicants will get firm acceptances.

I have no problem with the UK having elite universities whose graduates are more likely to end up running the country, if (and it's a big if) there is equality of opportunity to end up there. At present I don't think there is, but as I stated way upthread I would say the problem starts a long way before the A level year.

Doesn't France have an elite system with intense competition to get into certain places? How egalitarian is that? Is the Ivy League any better?

Ta1kinPeece · 26/10/2017 21:51

Clavinova
If I remember correctly, the 'computer said no' at one of the RG unis your dd applied to (for the course she applied for) - an interview/test might have earned her the place.
DD got four RG offers within 24 hours (one of which she is now attending)
the fifth RG University said and did nothing at all till 30th March when they gave her an offer for a course she'd not applied for (and did not want to do)
Not quite sure how an interview would have made a difference
as reading her PS would have told them that the offer they gave her was not relevant.
She confirmed one of the others within a few hours of receiving the late one.

Yellow
The Oxbridge exams that were taken in the February were separately taught at my private school.
At that time only 5% of 18 year olds went to Uni, the vast bulk from private schools

Clavinova · 26/10/2017 21:51

One Oxford tutor explains his involvement in the admissions process:

www.quora.com/Why-is-it-that-undergraduate-applicants-can-only-apply-to-Oxford-or-Cambridge

Ta1kinPeece · 26/10/2017 21:57

clavinova
That is the best explanation of the weaknesses in the system that need to be addressed I've ever seen.
Thank you.
They admit its fragmented and inefficient

BUT
Oxford and Cambridge choose to interview

I'm still unconvinced why UCAS allow them the time differential to be so inefficient

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/10/2017 21:57

I'm pretty certain it wasn't February. People talked about fourth term or seventh term applications, meaning fourth or seventh term of sixth form, the autumn term. Not many schools were geared up for pupils to go back for the seventh term, i.e. one final term after A levels, and I expect most were grammar or private schools. Those that were did indeed provide separate teaching for the Oxbridge exams. At my school it was extremely intensive and started with the dishing out of long reading lists at the end of the summer term. I was too lazy to want to do that and chose the A level route instead - big mistake! But we live and learn. Grin

YellowPrimula · 26/10/2017 22:01

Talk , Oxbridge exams were always 4th term or 7 th term so never in February.You still applied through UCCA I think by the mid 1980s you could also opt not to take the exam and go for a conditional .

Ta1kinPeece · 26/10/2017 22:01

PS
The Ivy League is the one that everybody in the UK knows about but some of the small Liberal Arts colleges in the US have far more of a grip on political power than most Ivy Leagues Grin

YellowPrimula · 26/10/2017 22:09

No one is saying the system is perfect but frankly if your dd received four offers within 24 hours after pressing send then it's pretty obvious that none of them bothered to read her application or cared particularly if she was suited to their course , it was just a case of 'got the right predicted grades so make an offer'. Thus doesn't seem anymore reliable for the disadvantaged applicant who will be rejected just as rapidly as your daughter was offered a place.

Clavinova · 26/10/2017 22:15

Ta1kinPeece

^Not quite sure how an interview would have made a difference
as reading her PS would have told them that the offer they gave her was not relevant.^

They probably offered her a place on an undersubscribed course. She was obviously a near miss for the course she actually wanted - an interview may have worked in her favour - the algorithm you mentioned earlier didn't work for her. The uni may not have even read her PS - the other 4 unis probably didn't if they sent back offers within 24 hours.

Ta1kinPeece · 26/10/2017 22:17

Thus doesn't seem anymore reliable for the disadvantaged applicant who will be rejected just as rapidly as your daughter was offered a place.
Define "disadvantaged" ? where we live counts as v v disadvantaged and DD was state all the way through and we are low income

The algorithmic system at least prevents "people like us " bias
and is transparent for schools who are new to sending kids to top200 Unis

Anything that makes it more complex will narrow participation

which brings us back to the Lammy data
and the OP
and the vigorous WP work that lots of regular Education thread posters devote themselves to

Clavinova · 26/10/2017 22:35

That is the best explanation of the weaknesses in the system that need to be addressed I've ever seen.

It's not that inefficient if they get through 10,000 interviews in 2 weeks.

As the tutor points out - hardly any applicant offered a place turns it down, unlike all of the other non-Oxbridge universities. If applicants can apply to both Oxford and Cambridge, both universities will have no idea which applicant will choose which of the two universities.

jeanne16 · 27/10/2017 07:13

Anyone who still thinks Oxbridge favours private school kids should read the Guardian article on p.13 posted by Gasp. They clearly show that pupils from top private and grammar schools are given no leeway at all whereas they make all sorts of allowances for pupils from tougher schools.

Actually I think this is also discrimination but no one is allowed to complain about it.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 27/10/2017 07:40

"A bar chart on the LSE website reveals that only about 22% of the total student population at LSE are UK-domiciled undergraduates.

Which University World Rankings Table is relevant by the way?
The Times Higher Education Table for 2018 lists Oxford 1st, Cambridge 2nd and LSE as 25th in the world."

Clarinova, I am not sure there is causality here. LSE does poorly in indices which give heavy weighting to science research (cos it does not have any) or to student satisfaction (I was about to say, cos it does not have any - but simpler to say that a quick google street view of Houghton Street compared with Kings College Cambridge might give you a starting point). LSE does well normally in international league tables by subject.

LSE has always been extraordinarily international, and post grad heavy. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Just read some academics concerns about the potential impact of Brexit. Even back in the dark ages I was the only Brit on my course, and not something I regret at all. DS now is the only Brit on his, and again there are huge positives. A small one being that the state/private issue amongst UK students appears to be pretty irrelevant.

I suspect that the different approach to recruitment will impact the make up of the student body. Observation was that no one said anything in first year classes. Interviews would have presumably prioritised students able and keen to articulate their interest in their subject. However LSE students will work as hard as their Cambridge counterparts, and will need to be as able, if not more, to cope with some of the more specialist quantitative courses.

Looking at acceptance rates can be a bit of a blind alley. It depends a lot on subject. We know, say, maths students who have chosen MIT or Harvard over Cambridge, but no classicists. If BoboChic were around (where is she!) she would confirm that good EU students looking to study abroad will often apply to move than one country. So ENA, LSE, Colombia etc. Roughly 25% of LSE students are from the EU so already their algorithms are working overtime.

Recruitment of UK students are also skewed by perceptions of the status of various Universities within the UK. DC have a number of second cousins all around the same age, and northern MIL and great aunts seem to spend some time comparing progress. Oxbridge trumps all, though medicine gets a look in. Imperial/LSE do not. I have spotted echoes of this on MN. Ditto there is a strong perception that London is too expensive, and no fun. Oddly EU/International students often want to be in London as they think living in a world city will be fun. And even if class and lecture sizes are larger than at Oxbridge, they are often a lot smaller than in other countries.

Is the tutorial system better? I have no idea, and am not sure there is a clear rule. DH was lucky to have a very good tutor who went on to become well known in his field, whilst a talented friend of DC's left because the tutor provided so little input that there was no point being there. DS' experience was that departmental wide teaching worked well because of the extremely strong academic support and encouragement he and his peers were given. Indeed he and his friends are already being roped in to provide, effectively mentoring, to first years.

I also assume that other oversubscribed Universities are content for Oxbridge decision making to be over and done with early. I think when DS applied LSE had 13 applications for every place. Of course some will reject, but the wait was excruciatingly long. It would presumably had been worse if those with Oxbridge places (aware that the grade requirements for LSE/Imperial would probably be just as tough) did not start sorting out their firms and insurances at an early stage. TiPs professional calls for changes on the grounds of equality would probably only result in making Y13 more stressful than it is already.

SchnitzelVonKrumm · 27/10/2017 09:53

Exams were in the autumn (so start of U6) with interviews in December at Oxford.

Fionnbharr · 27/10/2017 10:29

“Disadvantaged” I know of a family who were seriously considering buying a home in a town in the North West ( price around £30000) so that their privately educated DD would automatically get an interview at a certain university. They even had a whole story thought out to explain how their DD was at a private boarding school.......not sure if they went through with it at the end.

But proof that that the affluent and ambitious will game whatever system you put in place.

NumberEightyOne · 27/10/2017 10:51

Seriously Fionnbharr? What advantage would that give them? Would it be an address issue? Surely the University would spot the anomaly?

NumberEightyOne · 27/10/2017 10:59

Thinking about this in more detail, I know that if my ds used his grandparent's address he would be guaranteed an interview. I wouldn't let him do that because it feels like cheating. Evidently, some people wouldn't think twice about doing this.

Fionnbharr · 27/10/2017 11:00

I really don’t know what their thought process was - but I believe certain post codes - those eg where homes cost

NumberEightyOne · 27/10/2017 11:14

They must be thinking about the Polar Postcodes flags but surely the University would look at the school the child attends and realise that there is a bit of sharp practice going on?

HouseholdWords · 27/10/2017 11:59

The way I see it is Richmond is full of extremely intelligent people who presumably have intelligent children.

Very little to do with intelligence: educational advantage maps onto socio-economic advantage.

And that socio-economic advantage starts to show itself as educational advantage from the age of about 3 years old.

It is not the fault of the universities: the damage is done long before we get to talk to potential students. The damage is done by an unequal society, and the ability of parents to buy educational advantage for their children.