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Higher education

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Original poster

Oxbridge 'favours' students from London and South-East

487 replies

jeanne16 · 21/10/2017 08:21

Apparently 48% of students come from London and the South-East with Richmond being a particular hotspot. Should we be surprised by this and accuse the universities of bias? The way I see it is Richmond is full of extremely intelligent people who presumably have intelligent children. They then have the money and resources to support them in all sorts of ways, such as buying books, reading to them, private schooling and/or tutors when needed, sport and other activities.

I really don't see how this is the fault of the universities.

OP posts:
whiskyowl · 26/10/2017 09:58

"you'd have to send enforcers into people's houses to confiscate any books - actually, remove children from their families full stop in case it conferred any advantage."

Hmm

The point about equality of access is not that everyone should forced to be the same, but rather to recognise difference. The slope that some children have to climb to get 4 A*s is much, much steeper than the slops that challenges others.

LadyinCement · 26/10/2017 10:00

In the past the universities could see where else you had applied to, and so some applicants to Oxbridge might get no offers because other places were assuming that you would pick Oxbridge first, or maybe they were just being arsey. (Back in my day you were told not to put down Bristol if you'd applied to Oxbridge as it was an automatic no.) Anyway, if you then failed to get into Oxbridge you really were left high and dry.

SchnitzelVonKrumm · 26/10/2017 10:11

Just been to visit my old college, which was notoriously posh when I went there in the late 80s (from a comp - I had no idea it was so heavily public school when I applied because frankly I knew fuck all about Oxbridge or universities in general) but is now two-thirds state school.
I was involved in the outreach scheme as a student and can confirm that some teachers were very hostile to the idea of their pupils even applying. I was very lucky to have had a teacher who’d been to Cambridge and told encouraged me to try.
As someone said above, I felt the interview worked in my favour - no public school polish but I knew my stuff and was enthusiastic about the subject and, rather than trying to catch me out, they questioned me in a way that would allow me to show it.

SchnitzelVonKrumm · 26/10/2017 10:16

* "The impact on a 16 year old of mediaeval buildings with arcane rules about who may or may not walk where, sitting down to dinner with 4 lots of cutlery, not allowed to speak until Grace has been said in Latin, being required to wear a gown, the whole event being laced through with what seem like traps and tricks in etiquette, designed to make you feel like an outsider, and ignorant, cannot be underestimated."*

Sorry but this was bollocks even 30 years ago.

Clavinova · 26/10/2017 10:20

Presumably it's the simple reason that the time it takes for academics at Oxford and Cambridge to complete the process is very significantly higher than in non pre-testing/interviewing unis and if applicants could opt for both most would which would double the time taken out of teaching existing studetns/ research etc. It's that straightforward isn't it

Indeed, Oxford interview 10,000 students over 2 weeks in December every year - why would they want to interview 20,000 students over 4 weeks?

Fionnbharr · 26/10/2017 10:21

@shnitzel

It was bollocks at Wadham 40 years ago!

oklookingahead · 26/10/2017 10:27

True, good point - as they have, presumably, more than enough excellent candidates anyway.

Fionnbharr · 26/10/2017 10:28

@goodbye and anna

It might sound horrific - but is this not exactly what those who send their DC to private pre preps and preps are doing? And is that not one of the main marketing points of the private educational system? And as for child abuse - the private educational system has been far from immune but better safeguarding not abolishing the system is the way forward. These are the kids the FSM students are competing with.

Its like the D of E v Cadets argument. It’s fine for the well off to offer their ofspring all the chances money can buy. Suggest doing the same for free for the disadvantaged and it becomes abusive.

goodbyestranger · 26/10/2017 10:30

To be fair Wadham is now fairly minimalist on the formality side of things. But I agree with the general bollocks thing. It really is Class A bollocks. Give bright students a bit more credit than that!

Dorothy Wadham wrote that she wanted to fill her college with students from the West Country (specifically West Somerset and East Devon) rather than 'scholars of St Paul's'.

I'm trying to work out how elitist her intentions were, or not :)

SchnitzelVonKrumm · 26/10/2017 10:31

A mini-trend I notice in London is people taking their children out of private school at 16 and sending them to state schools for sixth form - can only assume this is because they believe it will confer some advantage in the university application process.

If I were the Russell Group I’d define very carefully what counts as state-educated (ie. more than a couple of years in a sixth form that won’t admit without good GCSE results). If there’s a system, middle-class parents will find a way to game it.

Abra1d · 26/10/2017 10:35

I believe that Talkin’s daughter said about two years ago that she didn’t want to go there?

flyingpigsinclover · 26/10/2017 10:35

Dd was saying that there is a definite north south divide with uni, she has a lot of friends around the country because of a hobby she has and most have gone to uni in the rough region they live in. The ones in the north haven't gone further south than Sheffield and only one from the south has gone north.

Clavinova · 26/10/2017 11:49

I was just looking up a course that wants AAA and had 1200 applicants for 270 places last year - they do not ask for extra tests, nor do they do 100 interviews

I was just looking at a similar course at Manchester University - MPhysics - 1,700 applicants for 310 places, entry AAA - A*AA, except that Which?University/UCAS imply that 89% of applicants (1,513 students) receive offers for this course compared to 19% of applicants at Oxford.

Any Physics student bright enough to have AAA predictions is also likely to have applied for Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial, Durham, Southampton etc. What would be the point for Manchester to interview and test 700 applicants and only make offers to 400? Many of their perceived 'best' applicants are just as likely to choose one of the other universities on their UCAS list. On the other hand, how many applicants would turn down an Oxbridge offer?

Extra tests and interviews seem a very reasonable selection process for two of the best universities in the world.

horsemadmom · 26/10/2017 12:06

The point of interviewing is that it is like a mock tutorial. If an applicant doesn't enjoy it or can't handle it, it's a good indicator that Oxbridge isn't a good fit. I've known several girls from my DD's school , which sends around 30 a year to Oxbridge, who had superlative GCSEs and predictions who just folded during interview. It's a very particular style of teaching and learning that doesn't suit everyone. It's certainly better for the university to choose students who will positively enjoy it rather than endure it or crack under the pressure of weekly close scrutiny and better for the students for whom the Oxbridge system will lead to 3-4 years of misery.

user918273645 · 26/10/2017 12:06

Anyway, if you then failed to get into Oxbridge you really were left high and dry.

This was really never the case. It was also an urban myth that Bristol would automatically reject you if you applied to Oxbridge - lots of my schools friends applied to both and got offers from Bristol.

The claim that all UCAS (UCCA) choices would reject an Oxbridge applicant with high predicted grades is ludicrous.

cantkeepawayforever · 26/10/2017 12:17

I had a letter from Durham stating that they might consider me when Oxbridge rejected me [note not 'if' - it was stated as definite] but only if they had any places available at that point....

oklookingahead · 26/10/2017 12:21

"The point of interviewing is that it is like a mock tutorial. If an applicant doesn't enjoy it or can't handle it, it's a good indicator that Oxbridge isn't a good fit."

Or, that that person may need to acclimatise to it. I don't know how useful interview preparation tutorials are for Oxbridge - but I suppose if you are not used to the format, and have no help from your school in preparing for it, you may flounder the first time - or at least perform less well than those who are prepared. And if that first time is the actual interview you then that will adversely affect your prospects of getting in.

I do agree that Oxbridge is not a good fit for everyone though, I think some people are probably much happier at other universities than if they'd got into Oxb.

flyingpigsinclover · 26/10/2017 12:28

I was just looking up a course that wants AAA and had 1200 applicants for 270 places last year - they do not ask for extra tests, nor do they do 100 interviews

Can you get this information for all unis and courses ? Where from please?

SchnitzelVonKrumm · 26/10/2017 12:34

When I was applying in the 1980s Bristol said explicitly they would only consider applicants who ranked them as first choice, so you couldn’t in effect apply to Ox or Cam and Bristol.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/10/2017 12:45

More fool them, then, Schnitzel!

That wouldn't apply nowadays, would it? (a) Applications aren't ranked in order of preference. (b) Universities don't know where else you've applied.

It definitely didn't apply to Durham in 1979, anyway, as I got an offer from Durham and it was ranked joint second to Cambridge with three others

Lily2007 · 26/10/2017 12:57

I got offers from everywhere when I applied years ago including LSE but no idea about Bristol. Always remember going to LSE after offer and the students advised me to take Cambridge offer and said they had a club called Oxbridge rejects. Seemed a little sad though think there was lots of parental pressure to go to Oxbridge.

Clavinova · 26/10/2017 13:01

flyingpigsinclover

Can you get this information for all unis and courses ? Where from please?

Manchester may be one of only a few universities who actually advertise the number of applicants per course but the Which? University Guide is here: university.which.co.uk/
Which? say they get their stats from UCAS.

user918273645 · 26/10/2017 13:18

When I was applying in the 1980s Bristol said explicitly they would only consider applicants who ranked them as first choice, so you couldn’t in effect apply to Ox or Cam and Bristol.

When my siblings applied to Oxford in the 1980s they simultaneously applied to Bristol and were offered places. My siblings received offers from all universities they applied to. (I myself applied later.) They also had school friends who applied to both Oxford and Bristol/Durham etc and got offers from the latter.

LadyinCement · 26/10/2017 14:34

I guess it might depend on the subject. Girl in my class who got an Exhibition to Oxford (do they still have those and scholarships?) was rejected from everywhere else. She had 8 A-grade O Levels so she wasn't some sort of wild card. We were told not to apply to Bristol because they supposedly hated grammar schools (but not private schools). Who knows? No internet back in the 80s to discern the truth or at least a range of opinions.