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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Oxbridge 'favours' students from London and South-East

487 replies

jeanne16 · 21/10/2017 08:21

Apparently 48% of students come from London and the South-East with Richmond being a particular hotspot. Should we be surprised by this and accuse the universities of bias? The way I see it is Richmond is full of extremely intelligent people who presumably have intelligent children. They then have the money and resources to support them in all sorts of ways, such as buying books, reading to them, private schooling and/or tutors when needed, sport and other activities.

I really don't see how this is the fault of the universities.

OP posts:
thiskittenbarks · 21/10/2017 18:34

I think it's probably a mix of northerners not being so keen to go and Oxford not being so keen to take them. But I do think it's a problem - oxbridge grads go on to fill so many of the top roles but come from such a teeny tiny pool. It's crazy and oxbridge really need to be more progressive and egalitarian IMO.
My DP is an academic at Oxford and
before coming to Oxford we lived in the north for years (but are actually both southerners). Up north I worked at a firm where the London office is filled with oxbridge grads - but the northern office seemed to prefer grads from Durham, Manchester etc.
A lot of the stuff they do at Oxford is pretty intolerable to me and I wouldn't have wanted to go there (not that they'd want me with my terrible state school education). The Latin at the dinners, the not sitting down till the top table do, not taking your jacket off, wearing certain flowers on certain days etc. I don't like going to the dinners. If you went to a Comp on a council estate (like me and DP) it feels pretty intimidating and I think that's at least a little bit intentional.

Lily2007 · 21/10/2017 19:02

I went to Cambridge from a Midlands comprehensive, first person to go there, Cambridge were amazingly supportive and school very negative said not to apply as they don't take people from comprehensives.

I loved it there, much nicer than school and much better pastoral care, no bullying in my college unlike school.

I go back every year so do my children and when we were there in September the Master was now female and her girlfriend was there so it's changed quite a bit, she spoke to me quite a bit. In my day my college was 80 percent male public school now it's very 50-50.

If you get the full data on David Lammy's website rather than his personal propaganda it shows a low level of comprehensive applications, they are accepting 1 in 3 compared to average rate of 1 in 6. So it could be comprehensives schools aren't encouraging or discouraging applications, schools aren't getting the grades, kids don't have the confidence, kids want to go elsewhere, whole range of possibilities.

Also with the black student figure he said only 400 black students get 3As or above in UK (minimum Oxbridge normally take on is higher than that) and how many of those are even applying to Oxbridge's 60 odd colleges. Some may have had no applications from black students and normally only 1 in 6 is accepted so it's normal not every black student is offered a place. Cambridge said it took 39 black students last year, Oxford hasn't said but based on the stats there may not be discrimination going on without further evidence.

My college even wrote me handwritten letters to support me, did absolutely everything they could, they would give counselling out of their own budget to anyone in need. Just because some boy went private to doesn't mean their life is perfect either, my best friend there went private and showed me his self harm marks.

bevelino · 21/10/2017 19:12

I think the interviewing of students at Oxbridge should end as that is where the real bias creeps in.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/10/2017 19:25

Dh and I are Oxbridge educated, live in the north and dd goes to a nice but average northern comp, and we are battling dd to get her to say aitch instead of haitch because we strongly suspect that should she apply to Oxbridge the admissions people won't have been well enough trained in unconscious bias for that kind of thing not to count against her.
We know many people who do Oxbridge admissions and dh has done it himself in the past and they are all perfectly decent, well meaning people who sincerely want to take the best students, but we don't believe they are all as astute as they think they are about telling education from intelligence.

lljkk · 21/10/2017 19:36

Oxbridge knows the answer to this. They can see what proportion apply in different categories (income, race, geography), next what proportion fail at interview or to get the exam results, thus where the failure points are.

KatherinaMinola · 21/10/2017 19:51

Yes, lljkk - it would be helpful (for everyone) if they released that data and a statement about it. I don't think they will though.

Obviously there will be variations college to college - and those would be interesting to see too - but it would be good to know the ranking of the problems (marketing/outreach failure? admissions bias? lack of potential applicants who meet Oxbridge criteria?) and therefore what needs most attention.

user1464118261 · 21/10/2017 20:20

I think the stats should record unselective state schools and selective state schools as two catagries, I recently took my DD to view an Oxbridge college, we were shown round by a lovely student from a London selective state school. My Dds educational experience from an unselecting comprehensive was just miles
from this students. My DD is predicted 4A* so it is not about academic ability or success but things like the lack of opertunities to debate and discuss that the student had clearly had. My DD has been regularly critised at school through the years for asking questions and debating which is clealy the skill you need for an oxbridge interview. When Oxbridge say they want the academic best I do not beleive they allow for these differences in educational experience that patiently exist even between state schools let allone when you bring in private schools.

Ifailed · 21/10/2017 20:21

As much as Oxbridge wrings it's hands in public, it's clear that there is still inertia against addressing the problem, otherwise their admissions would reflect the demographics of the country.

The same holds true in other aspects of life deeply entrenched in discriminatory practices, the number of women appointed to the boards of FTSE 100 companies is actually at the lowest for 6 years www.cranfield.ac.uk/press/news-2016/women-on-boards-ftse-100-company-has-full-gender-balance-for-first-time

It's obvious that major organisations still want 'people like us' when either recruiting senior staff or students, either we accept that women are less competent than men in running companies and the children of the wealthy are more intelligent than those from average backgrounds, or accept that bias is alive and kicking in the UK. If the latter, the challenge is how do we address it?

Lily2007 · 21/10/2017 20:31

www.davidlammy.co.uk/single-post/2017/10/20/Oxbridge-access-data

Loads of data is available here in an Excel file if you choose full data. You do need to analyse it yourself though. Grammar and comps are treated differently, infact he's almost treated grammar like private which I don't think is fair as they are state and in our one 98% are BME. Though its good its separated as then you can see more clearly where the issue lies. Grammar schools get broadly same results as privates so should be getting roughly the same percentage in etc without bias. Though having been at Cambridge private school children also ended up with jobs paying around 50% more than state equivalents with the same jobs. The private school children are more confident and more well informed about careers and encouraged to be ambitious. I went to a comprehensive was told nothing much about careers and told I would fail if I applied to Oxbridge so don't bother.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/10/2017 20:31

'When Oxbridge say they want the academic best I do not beleive they allow for these differences in educational experience that patiently exist even between state schools let allone when you bring in private schools.'

Yes, this. I think many of the people involved in admissions won't even be aware of those differences. Many of them will have children at state school themselves and think they understand the whole breadth of the system but they don't realise how atypical the good Oxford state schools are.

KatherinaMinola · 21/10/2017 20:51

Wow, that dataset is fascinating - thanks for posting, Lily.

elevenclips · 21/10/2017 21:21

The stats can only show so much. I know someone who went to oxbridge from a northern comp. he was like a poster boy for getting to oxbridge from a not great school. Dig a bit deeper and you find his father is a uni lecturer in the subject he was studying at oxbridge. Lots of the "access" stuff is bull for this sort of reason.

Contrast with a teenager I know who's been sent to an expensive boarding school. On paper extremely privileged . But no. He's been sent to avoid his parents who have divorced extremely acrimoniously - one has committed a crime and the other cannot cope. At the boarding school he has nobody who loves him. He got put into a dorm with strangers. He hates it. He struggles in every subject. But there is nobody who can help him overall. but oh how privileged he is Hmm

2rebecca · 21/10/2017 22:12

When my son went to one of the specialist subject days at Cambridge (can't remember what they were called now) he was the only person from Scotland there. He chose not to apply. largely the tuition fees but also the choosing a college thing and all the formality just seemed very strange and unScottish.
I think if you are from the north of the UK the Oxbridge system just seems very odd and uncomfortable.

2rebecca · 21/10/2017 22:22

I don't think the answer to this is to admit more northern or non-white people with lower qualifications though. Living in Scotland there aren't that many ethnic minorities anyway though especially on the East coast so I always wonder if the London based media have a skewed view of how nonwhite the whole of the UK is.
Oxbridge has always had a private school bias, these days it's by expecting lots of A* exams from English students, when I thought of applying in the 80s it was the entrance exam set several months before A levels which private schools trained you for and my state school didn't. I'm not sure what the answer to this is without admitting students who will struggle to keep up and may be better off elsewhere.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/10/2017 22:33

I don't think anyone is suggesting admitting students of lower ability. The argument is that they may not currently be getting the best students because their procedures might be more biased than they realise, or be putting of potential good applicants for other reasons.

Lily2007 · 21/10/2017 22:42

David Lammy is suggesting lower offers for "working class" kids.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/10/2017 22:47

But lower grades doesn't mean lower ability or that you will struggle.

dotdotdotmustdash · 21/10/2017 22:52

My dd was talked out of applying to Cambridge by her HOY in her Scottish Comp. She got the grades (A*AA equiv) but her told her she shouldn't waste her time applying.

user1464118261 · 21/10/2017 22:55

The story is that most of those who apply have the qualifactions to get in but that to some extent it is luck if you are the choosen one rather than the ones being rejection. The question is why arnt more of the welsh/scottish/BME/northern students the ones who are choosen to be lucky? Its doesn't feel as it is just just about applying if you are one of those groups. Incidently the welsh boy on BBC news who got in from Bridgend has a father who is a head master like the example from elevenclips.

Aureservoir · 21/10/2017 22:55

OP, you make good points.

BTW, I am oop north, but have two DC who board in the Home Counties. Keen Oxbridge applicants (firstborn already there). So are they Northerners, or Home Counties children? They are applying from school so would presumably be regarded as Home Counties, though that couldn't be further from the truth. The same must be true of lots of boarders. There are holes in the whole argument, I think.

Ta1kinPeece · 21/10/2017 22:59

100% Interviews are a significant part of the problem.

People who live more then three hours away will be put off by the logistics of attending an interview.
Interviewers will be consciously or unconsciously biased to select "people like them"

The sooner Oxbridge offers are based solely on application forms
with no face to face sorting, the sooner they will stop being so biased.

openday · 21/10/2017 23:09

There are some very interesting and insightful posts on this thread.

As an Oxford admissions tutor, I have been very disheartened and angry even to read all the media articles about Oxford over the last couple of days. These articles just reinforce the notion that Oxford is an elitist place, where Northerners, BME students and students from state schools will not be made to feel at home. Nothing could be further from the truth!

No, the University admissions system is not perfect, but I and virtually all my colleagues in my subject are hyper-aware of the need for access and outreach, and extremely keen to admit BME students and students from the more under-represented regions of the UK. The pool of applicants varies from college to college and subject to subject, but in my subject, a majority of applicants are white and from independent schools in London and the Southeast. What the article provided by mateysmum states is very true: you can't admit people if they don't apply.

It is very frustrating to see how few state school students and Northerners apply, but even so, I admit every state school student I can. Many of these students end up with Firsts, and more than one has told me that they were advised by their school not to apply to Oxford because they were not good enough to get in. Hmm

A few comments above that made me wince:

I think it's probably a mix of northerners not being so keen to go and Oxford not being so keen to take them.
Oxford is delighted to take northerners FFS! Remember that a fair number of tutors are northerners themselves. I cannot imagine any tutor thinking, 'Hmm, this applicant seems clever, but oh dear, they are from the north, I had better choose a southerner instead.'

'When Oxbridge say they want the academic best I do not beleive they allow for these differences in educational experience that patiently exist even between state schools let allone when you bring in private schools.' Yes, this. I think many of the people involved in admissions won't even be aware of those differences. Many of them will have children at state school themselves and think they understand the whole breadth of the system but they don't realise how atypical the good Oxford state schools are.

Admissions tutors ARE aware of the differences between state schools. Did you know that many of the state schools in Oxford are in fact historically NOT very good, because in Oxford many of the more privileged middle-class children go to independent schools rather than state? Outside Oxford, in the villages of Oxfordshire, there are many outstanding state schools, but historically the schools within Oxford itself have struggled with low results. My children go to state school, I am a school governor in addition to being an Oxford tutor, and I'm keenly aware of the stats. The Cherwell School, a state secondary in North Oxford, is rated outstanding, but houses in that catchment area easily cost a million pounds. The state secondary closest to where I live in Oxford recently went into special measures as a failing school.

deep breath

What I and my colleagues at Oxford would love to see would be students from every school in the UK applying here. Because every year, we get hundreds of applicants from places like Eton and Winchester, but there are dozens of secondary schools who have never helped one of their students apply to Oxbridge, ever. It is applicants from those schools we want to see!

Aureservoir · 21/10/2017 23:13

Excellent post, Openday. ^^

AalyaSecura · 21/10/2017 23:15

Openday, then the easiest way Oxbridge could prove that these points were not true would be to publish conversion rates - applications:offers, for private / grammar / comprehensives. Would that data support your view that these three groups have an equal chance?

AalyaSecura · 21/10/2017 23:16

Random smiley, that should be applications : offers