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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Imperial College, what's it really like?

226 replies

amirrorimage · 04/12/2016 09:50

Ideally I would prefer my DCs to make evidence-based decisions for their university choices rather than from whims and possibly unfounded rumours (most arising from classmates with no direct knowledge of places). I realise that I may be fighting a losing battle though.
Imperial College is a bit of a dilemma. My DC applied there for physics without going for an open day. Recently had interview (which did not go badly) liked the interviewer but put off for several reasons. The first is that the tutorial groups are of 20 facilitated by one senior academic and one PhD student. DC is from a state school with very large sixth form classes for the maths and science so would really like smaller tutorial groups at university (as well as good quality academic teaching of course)
The second reason ars the rumours about the lack of social life at Imperial backed by the interview group being almost all international students (with international sounding American accents).
Has anybody got anything positive or reassuring to say about IC?

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Itwillbefine · 05/12/2016 18:20

I loved being a student in London, I lived in Elephant and Castle, but this was in the nineties.

For me it was the place to go, both my parents went there and my brother was at IC (lived in the same halls in first year as my dad had, unfortunately now demolished).

Can I assume that they still have their own student bar etc? I do think intercollegiate halls are great for getting a good all round social start.

amirrorimage · 05/12/2016 18:38

Thanks Surferbabe
Yes, it is possible that all the potential career advantages of IC would be best left to postgraduate but it is a bit one bird in the hand two in the bush scenario.
Next term when all the possibilities will be known (and DC is that little bit older) I will show DC this thread to help final decisions. All the views posted are useful Flowers so please keep them coming particularly parents who know of students there now.

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hellsbells99 · 05/12/2016 19:13

Slight derailing of the thread but Brian Cox is currently on TV promoting 'The Entire Universe' which is on at Xmas and more of a panto!

bojorojo · 05/12/2016 20:32

Who , other than an amazingly rich student, lives in South Ken or Chelsea now???? Student experiences from the last century are unbelievably out of date with London prices. A 2 bed flat in Ele and Castle is £1800 a month. SK and Chelsea more! Student accommodation has standards these days. You cannot just cram as many in as you want. This is why poorer students end up being so far away from college. London is expensive!

maryso · 06/12/2016 11:10

'Tis strange that 11 year olds can 'commute' up to an hour for school (usually not in London) but 17 year olds cannot manage half that. There are quite a few council estates within extremely easy commutes, in St John's Wood, Paddington, Regent's Park, to name a few, where rents will be very competitive. Housing is expensive for what you get, but the options are many. Everything else is up to you to choose and probably cheaper like for like than in sleepy hollow. Imperial is open 24/7 and there are night tubes and buses. Imperial actually has generous grants for the truly needy.

High proportions of overseas students occur in schools too, and some of these are not in London. It is because they are sought after for what they offer. Imperial does not need to court overseas students, they can figure out what they are getting and vote with their feet.

I think however if one is looking for negatives, then every negative that applies to any university can be used. London is as well-connected and served than any place. Even in halls, all students in any university will have to manage the logistics of socialising. 11-year olds can manage that, so someone needs to explain how this ability vanishes at 17. I suspect that most of the world will not be swayed by these non-issues. There will be many who choose not to go to Imperial, but sullen company and unimaginative housing solutions are not their main reasons.

bojorojo · 06/12/2016 11:58

The length of the commute is no issue at all. It is the fact that you are not in a student community. Students can end up literally all over London and commuting an hour after a night out is not many students' idea of fun and this would not be the case in any other university city. These tend to have student areas! Cheap rents in Regents Park? Nothing, nothing is cheap in Regents Park area, ex Council or not!

bojorojo · 06/12/2016 12:02

Just to put this in some form of perspective: the whole Physics Department has 280 undergrad students. 80 of these could be home students but they are on a variety of courses. This is not many given some will be living at home. The mix of students here is different to elsewhere and that is neither good or bad but it depends on what you want.

rightsofwomen · 06/12/2016 12:03

boro I don't understand what you're saying. First you say the commute isn't an issue, then go on to say it can take an hour to get home after a night out.

We live rurally and my son has had to commute since secondary school. He's sick of it and this is a concern for him going to London. First year will be fine I presume (halls), but from then.....
He plans to use his bike.

We are not affluent (at all!).
It could be such a different life to campus.

maryso · 06/12/2016 14:06

bojo, cheap is many things to different people. Certainly in central council areas, rents will be competitive with university rents. Young sharers are their main market.

This, this, and this and a great many others popped up on a basic search. They are all competitive, reasonably central, and certainly doable by bicycle. Like any other university, flats like these will be occupied for 2-3 years and handed along to the next batch.

MrsBernardBlack · 06/12/2016 14:16

I think bojo is comparing the experience of student life in central London with that of a campus university. For a young person leaving home for the first time, there are many fewer stresses with the latter, but that is not to say that they cannot cope with student life in London.

jeanne16 · 06/12/2016 14:27

Maryso. I think lots of students would struggle to pay the rent on those flats you quotes. At £2300 per month divided by 3, that results in almost £800 pm each. Added to this will be energy bills, wifi, etc (though no council tax) and this would be around £850pm before travel and food costs. Also they will be expected to pay rent for 12 months of the year. My Dd at Cambridge paid £120 per week excl food. She only paid for the weeks she was there. Also she didn't have to pay train or tube fares every day.

SenseiWoo · 06/12/2016 14:39

A good friend works there, so we have been a few times for events and always found the (international) students we've met very friendly and engaging. The Science fair last summer was very very impressive from that point of view-lots of science students being very good with my young children.

Which isn't really very relevant, but anyway. Imperial's big residential campus in West London is fantastic and will be finished soon. That will give students a great social base whatever their course, I would have thought.

I have a young relative at another London uni known for its international student body. The social life is so good I can never get hold of him! Lots of the overseas students have chosen London for that reason and really want to make the most of their years here.

bojorojo · 06/12/2016 16:52

Maryso - I think you are way out of touch with affordable student rents!!! With bills and transport, costs will be nearer £1000 a month, over a 12 month let too. Most students will not be able to afford that and eat as well. Also students are not allowed to bunk down in lounges these days. There are rules. These rents are young professionals rents. People working in good jobs but just starting out. My DD pays about this in rent from her training grant which equates to about £37,000 pa.

Yes MrsBernard. That was my point. Not even necessarily a campus university. No-one at somewhere like Sheffield, Bristol, Edinburgh or any other city university would be living a masssive commute away. A residential campus in London (how much will that be?) for one year is great, but there may be two or three years in a far flung London borough on top of that, with a lengthy commute back and forth, and no student community near home. Student cities have that community where the students live. It is what makes them attractive to some students.

I would not dream of saying students are not friendly who have put themselves forward for an open day. My DD did this at her university, and her post grad college and her school. She can sell any educational institution. Would you expect to see some grumpy introverted student who could not engage with anyone (from any nationality)? Obviously not. However, this is not indicative of student life and lasting friendship. It is a show.

I think all of this needs to be in the mix when making decisons about what university.

senua · 06/12/2016 18:52

Those flats are unfurnished, aren't they?

senua · 06/12/2016 18:55

I beg your pardon. The third one is furnished ((I got bored after the first two) but it's £100 more p.w.

maryso · 06/12/2016 20:30

bojo I think to say those private rentals are non-competitive is being very out of touch with what halls cost, both at Imperial and UoL intercollegiate halls.
Of course it is expensive, however less so than boarding school fees, which is effectively what we are doing, when our children go away to university. Just because you call them young professional rents does not stop them being rented out to students. Young professionals have better sense than to share council flats in central London. Generally private rentals of council homes are at twice the council rate. You may well ask why.

Education is never free, and in this country we have elected to pay directly. The question has become whether it is worth the investment. It is also somewhat two-tongued for anyone who borrows to buy a home, and unhappy for housing prices to be half what they are, to also complain about rental costs. They are part and parcel of the economy we have elected to shape over the years.

bojorojo · 06/12/2016 21:37

I know what London halls cost - my DD was in one. However Imperial has them from £99 a week. That is a long way short of £225 or thereabouts for these flats. Plus needing furniture. My children also went to boarding school - current fees £33,000 per year. I am really sorry, maryso, but you are way off the finances available to most people. University is not remotely close to boarding school prices. If it was, only the rich would be able to go. These flats are only likely to be rented to well off students. Also, if only one is furnished they are not student lets as they must have a desk, chest of drawers, bed etc. These are YoPro flats, they really are. Why do you think YoPros would not rent an ex council flat? More sense? Depends on how much you earn, and location, doesn't it?

We have not elected to pay directly. There is a loan system. Students whose parents are on low incomes get about £8500 pa for everything in London. Even the poorest parents would need to top up significantly for these flats. Other students can borrow about £4000, so parents would need to top up by £8000 to even get the property and afford the transport to college. Do you really think most parents can afford that?

Many ex council properties have been sold. They are private properties and the rental asked has nothing to do with what the Council would ask. They are simply not related.

amirrorimage · 06/12/2016 22:44

sullen company and unimaginative housing solutions
maryso the meaning of the word sullen is rather different from than the characteristics of sociability and fun I was asking about.

Your comments about the affordability of flats in London does emphasise the gulf between those families who can afford and think it is normal and those who can't. It is likely that the two thirds of the students who are international students at Imperial can afford high central prices. I am unsure as to how many of the UK students fall into your world or the other and if of the latter how many are actually from London and living at home.
I think the choice of Imperial with the commuting etc is likely to be more akin to the lifestyle of starting work than the typical cheaper, easy access to activities and friends, lifestyle of students.

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IrenetheQuaint · 06/12/2016 23:01

Forgive me if I've missed this, OP, but is your financial situation secure enough that you can help your DC out to a significant degree while they're at university? If not I would write off London universities altogether as the financial strain on them would be so great.

(I moved to London at 21 post-graduation and love it to bits, but I'm very glad I wasn't a student here. Financially, logistically and socially it sounds v. stressful, and best avoided unless for a specific course that doesn't run elsewhere.)

amirrorimage · 07/12/2016 05:37

IreneTheQuaint we are in the category that could afford to supplement for cheaper rents but it would be a stretch. This DC is attracted to London but I am not sure that West Acton (however nice the complex) plus the location of affordable housing later fits in with the illusion. It is certainly a factor but not an absolute deal breaker if IC ticks the boxes (the main ones being teaching style and sociability particularly during course working hours) otherwise.
TBF we do know of friends'DCs at other London universities who seemed to have managed quite well for affordable accommodation post halls.

I may be wrong but nowadays the IC socioeconomic mix of undergraduates sounds rather similar to that of one of the top boarding schools like Eton (with the equivalent 'bursary' intake of UK students perhaps mainly from London).

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Tartle · 07/12/2016 06:19

Just to clarify when looking at the uni nationality stats posted above the 33% uk students entering every year won't necessarily mean that the number of U.K. Students will be 33%. U.K. Students are more likely to do undergrad courses (so stay for 3-4 years) and you would be unlikely to see any if programme with less than 50% uk students even in London.

Many of the pg courses at London unis are 80%+ international so it skews the stats.

I did ug in a campus uni and pg in London and I felt that was better for me as I don't think I was ready for London at 18 and I felt the social life was more friendly and intimate if less exciting! I do think it depend on personality of dc though.

Imperial has a great rep and jobs should be good but London unis all do less well on student satisfaction. It's a tough one.

amirrorimage · 07/12/2016 07:24

Good point Tartle
I've just done a quick Google search to check for UG percentages.
This link www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/administration-and-support-services/planning/public/statistics-guides/Imperial-College-Statistics-Guide-2014-2015.pdf (if you scroll past the REF data shows that in 2014/2015 only about a quarter of undergraduates are non EU / UK.

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Needmoresleep · 07/12/2016 09:40

OP, the simple answer I suspect is that it depends a lot on the student. There is no doubt that Imperial can offer a world class education, and you should not be put off by the poor experience Borojo's daughters seem to have had. Other's will have had a great time.

DS is not at Imperial, but in his third year at LSE. Several of his friends went to Imperial as did a large group of DDs friends. My, slightly random, observations are therefore slightly second hand and based on experience of a similar international and specialist London University, one which I also went to.

DS's choice was influenced partly by the fact that he was not offered places at Warwick, UCL and Cambridge. I think, for the reasons Goodbye gives up thread, he would have chosen Cambridge and I would have urged him to take another look at Warwick and the different student experience it offered. However I don't think he regrets LSE at all and indeed is only applying to there and Oxford for his Masters. Academically he feels departments elsewhere are less interesting.

Anyway:

  1. Academics. If you are really really interested in your subject and this is your main driver in choosing where to study, the specialist London Universities should be near the top of any list. Ability to engage is important, and this is where London may differ from Oxbridge. These institutions will all employ interesting academics whether at the start of, or established in their careers. There is lots of scope in London, via societies, voluntary lecture series, public talks, office hours, volunteering to help post-grads with research and more, to engage in your subject beyond lectures and classes. Academics normally are very happy to support students who share their passion for a subject. Yet DS has been surprised at how few take advantage of office hours, and indeed that he is the only UG who seems to have asked if he could attend a really interesting seminar series. A close friend of his has had a similar experience at Imperial, where he has picked up amazing international opportunities via engagement in a specialist subject society.
  1. Flexibility. DS has had a wide choice in options, and has been able to tailor his degree to reflect his emerging interests and apparent talents. (For some reason he is doing better at maths than he did at school, for others it has been the reverse, but scope for both groups to steer to and from technical elements.) Friends of his who received rejections from Cambridge, saw the ability to specialise at Imperial, rather than spend a year studying NatSci, as a real silver lining.
  1. Overseas students. Well firstly "the Chinese" are a diverse group. Half will probably be from the Chinese diaspora, rather than mainland China. DS' Chinese friends come from Wales, Harrow, a British Public School, and the International School system as well as Hong Kong. One of his flat mates was from mainland China, but happy to mix. From what I have heard, some will work very very hard, others, once away from family pressure, not at all. DS has picked up some of the culture of hard work (and how to make dumplings), which can only be a good thing. And Imperial really is not just Chinese. It is amazingly diverse, so one boy we know has friends from Iceland, Portugal, Malaysia and just about everywhere else. For many Europeans, Imperial is just as big a name as Oxbridge, and living in London is part of the attraction.
  1. Social life. It depends what you want. DS was very happy to avoid a full blown freshers week, and be in a culture which does not require regular drinking. London has lots of layers, so students find their own city, whether it is art house cinemas showing Manga, North London pubs screening live computer gaming in Korea (I know!), seven a side football leagues, off-peak times in climbing centres, LSE's Saucy disco, and so on. There are lots of joint events/competitions involving student societies from the different London Universities. One advantage of London is that student life tends to be based on University rather than hall, so accessible to second and third years and Post graduates, as well as first years. This is not true at some campus Universities, Warwick is an example, where late night transport from campus can be tricky. Athletics Unions in some London Universities have a real reputation for laddish behaviour, wild nights out and for conducting team trials in the bar, thereby catering for the party animals. Imperial has very good sports facilities. (I am not sure about geologists but going back many years, I still remember some very good parties at the School of Mines.)
  1. Living. London is expensive. However Imperial is reputed to be the best off London University which has led to it having one of the highest student satisfaction rates in London. (And London Universities seem keen to maximise their student satisfaction rates because of the impact on league tables.) Imperial, like others, has ways of supporting less well off students. Imperial has relatively good accommodation provision, some of it linked with its recent expansion at Shepherds Bush. A London based friend of DDs has a bursary which allow him to spend his first year in hall. LSE too is keen to find ways for good students from outside the South East to attend. I don't get why Borojo's daughters would choose to live in the Elephant and Castle, which is expensive because of its transport links to the City. Something like an ex-Council flat, using the living room as a bedroom, near Clapham Junction (a quick train ride to Kensington and buses to everywhere else) would seem more sensible. Again though it is worth remembering that wherever you are, you are probably better off than the second year Warwick student in the bus queue in Leamington Spa worried they will miss their 9.00am lecture. (In contrast a London student will be able to study in the library 24 hours a day so will be less worried about slightly cramped accommodation.) Not spending on drinking and clubbing, and eating cheaply in China Town or cooking with friends means that once his rent is paid he seems to spend less that many other MN DC.

However, living in London is a challenge, and if your primary aim is a "University experience" rather than your subject, and if self study skills are not fully in place and you will want support and encouragement to engage, there will be better places than Imperial. That said Imperial seems to work for younger students, at least those who are able to commute (DD knew a couple of 14 year olds and a 16 year old who went there, presumably treating it a bit like a sixth form college) and for British ethnic minorities who seem to enjoy the diversity and the lack of an all-pervading drinking culture. For a good student it will deliver a very good education and great job opportunities. Students in London emerge very job ready.

One concern, in case anyone from Imperial reads MN, expressed by DDs friends both at UCL and Imperial is a tendency for Mandarin speaking graduate teachers to respond to questions posed in Mandarin in their native language. It leaves other students feeling that they have received less complete teaching than their peers. And indeed irritates a Mandarin speaking friend of DDs who says he wants to learn his engineering in English. If he wanted to learn in Mandarin he could have stayed at home.

maryso · 07/12/2016 10:24

It is pretty obvious that negatives can be found as and where you wish.

Does bojo's 'quote' of £99 weekly rental mean the Imperial and UoL sites are wrong? I'm sure £10 a week was possible at some stage... Did the OP mention evidence at some point?

Affordability is deciding whether something is worth looking for a solution. Clearly Imperial's contribution to some DCs' future is not good enough compared with the debt levels going into housing. People worldwide take responsibility for paying for their choices. Loans are exactly paying directly, unless you decide to default and/or end up in a place not of your choosing. I think saying a loan is not paying directly says a lot in itself.

Most people cannot afford boarding fees and choose not to pay because the state alternative is perfectly acceptable. The question is whether you think someone else should pay for the investment in your DC's future, and we have elected as a nation that individuals pay for their tertiary education. In that we are with the majority of the world. So it comes down to whether it is worth financing.

You have no idea what anyone's 'world' is, places like Imperial don't care where you come from, and their bursaries and scholarships clearly reflect that. It is a 3/4 year investment, and if that's not worth funding then there is no question to answer. If you are not able to raise the finance, you will qualify for bursaries. If you do not qualify for their extremely generous bursaries, and you say you cannot afford it, it is clear that you've already decided to invest elsewhere. Finance is not an issue for Imperial.

Sociability and fun an issue in London? I wish you well in your search elsewhere. There are many very good places to read Physics, so I'm sure your DC will be well served.

amirrorimage · 07/12/2016 10:26

There have been some really helpful advice posted here, the plurality of views is the power of MN Smile
However Needmoresleep that is an amazing post, both for the detail and experience Flowers.
I am getting more of an overview now of IC and that will be passed onto DC and hopefully helpful to others.

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