Imperial College, what's it really like?

[amirrorimage]

Ideally I would prefer my DCs to make evidence-based decisions for their university choices rather than from whims and possibly unfounded rumours (most arising from classmates with no direct knowledge of places). I realise that I may be fighting a losing battle though.
Imperial College is a bit of a dilemma. My DC applied there for physics without going for an open day. Recently had interview (which did not go badly) liked the interviewer but put off for several reasons. The first is that the tutorial groups are of 20 facilitated by one senior academic and one PhD student. DC is from a state school with very large sixth form classes for the maths and science so would really like smaller tutorial groups at university (as well as good quality academic teaching of course)
The second reason ars the rumours about the lack of social life at Imperial backed by the interview group being almost all international students (with international sounding American accents).
Has anybody got anything positive or reassuring to say about IC?

[unlucky83]

I went to UCL quite a while ago now doing science and as a mature student and I already lived in London.... didn't really get involved with the social aspects however...
I was told IC then (pre UK fees) took in a large number of foreign full fee paying students, wasn't a good place to go and I would probably not be offered a place anyway as they had limited spaces for UK non-fee paying students.
At UCL on my course we had a few foreign students - I found that they were under incredible pressure - their parents were paying a lot of money for them to be there (pretty sure foreign students still now pay a lot more than UK students). They did work hard - spent most of their time studying. And without meaning to be mean - I found that a couple of them struggled with the course. I guess English not as their first language didn't help but actually I think they (or at least one of them) just wasn't bright enough -or as bright as the people they were surrounded with. One got a 2.1 (was trying for a first), another scraped a 2.2 and I felt really sorry for them - they both felt like they had failed, let their families down. (I had tried to help one during the course - I think their MH was really suffering- I really hope they are ok now.)
As for respected researchers ...that isn't as positive as you might think.
I found the most successful researchers were the worst lecturers. They view time teaching/tutoring as time away from their research. Researchers depend on grants to fund their work - the more you publish the more grants you get. The more time you spend teaching/lesson planning/marking the less time you have to do research, the less you publish, the less successful you are.. They had badly planned lessons and one in particular seemed to be deliberately making his subject incomprehensible. I later found out that no-one in the previous 2 years had attempted his question in the exams...which meant he had zero marking...and I later came to the conclusion that was deliberate.
The experience for a Phd student/Post doc is different to an undergraduate -or was for me - we didn't have planned lectures etc -and you are contributing towards the research, towards publication, towards their success.
I guess the most successful well established researchers can afford to farm the teaching out to a post-doc/Phd student...

[LuchiMangsho]

Let me put it this way- Post docs at Imperial College may well be far more accomplished than lecturers at lower rung universities. Your run of the mill PhD student doesn't end up with a post-doc at Imperial.

And don't assume that actual lecturers/researchers will devote ANY time to teaching. I enjoy teaching personally, but every hour I devote to my students is time away from my research which is ALL (and I really do mean all) that determines my career progression. This is even more true of the sciences than the Humanities. In the sciences the very top names will go through their entire career having encountered undergraduates very briefly in labs. If you think they are going to be holding tutorials then that's unlikely to be the case. So don't think senior academic= better teacher/scientist than Imperial Post Doc.

I don't want to offend anyone but honestly, in the sciences those who end up lecturing, do so because they haven't been able to hack it as scientists.

DH was a post-doc at Imperial College for a while (he's a medic). When he got there he had a degree from Harvard and a DPhil from Oxford in Medicine. I assure you, the students he was teaching as a post doc were not being remotely short changed!

[amirrorimage]

LuchiMangsho nobody would feel shortchanged by postdocs teaching (I include those in more senior academic category even those on their first postdoc). Some might be by PhDs especially as these will also have pressure on their time, will be less experienced for course teaching plus it is a cheap way to provide teaching.

I sort of agree with your last statement. On that basis though I wonder what makes the undergraduate courses at Imperial so good (or is it just about the student quality they attract).

[amirrorimage]

Your penultimate statement I mean

[RunRabbitRunRabbit]

Can admissions put him in contact with existing students in the physics dept who he can talk to about their experience of physics at Imperial?

[amirrorimage]

Rabbit thanks that might be worth suggesting to try next term when making final choices. I am not sure if IC admissions would have the time or inclination though to take time for such a query from an individual prospective student when their course is in such high demand.

[unlucky83]

luchi Don't want to derail but actually ime the most successful researchers are not necessarily the best scientists...they are the best at getting published. And sometimes that means they publish something so fast, without adequate checks it later turns out to be incorrect (as I know has happened more than once for one senior researcher -and no they didn't broadcast that information - no corrections published/errors acknowledged -most shocking one is due to the methodology...others could follow that and waste time and resources ).
Or they do the 'easy' things and leave harder questions as they take too long...like the pharmaceutical industry drop things that aren't showing positive results quickly enough. (Academia should be picking up that slack)
One of the best scientific minds I know was a lecturer - had two publications in top journals but took too long, was too thorough, to get his results out/published often enough to get enough funding.
It is the reason I became disillusioned with science...

[RunRabbitRunRabbit]

Most places have groups of students, special days etc for exactly this kind of thing. I doubt it would be doing something extra special for your DS.

[LuchiMangsho]

I know that about the sciences. I am married to a very disillusioned scientist who went back, somewhat reluctantly, to medicine.

[unlucky83]

Sorry Luchi - just touched a nerve -think your sentence needs rewording to 'lecturers are failed researchers' not scientists -and that isn't necessarily a bad thing!

[bojorojo]

I think it is well documented that Imperial has a growing percentage of international students. At very many universitities, students who speak the same language congregate together. It is natural to do that because they have shared culture and interests. The pecentage of overseas students at Imperial is 67% (from their own statistics) and this is higher than most universities. It has also grown in the last few years. It is likely to mean that finding friends is more challenging. Certainly finding lasting friends would be more challenging. There are plenty of students who will be living at home and socialise away from the College. They treat university as a day job, not a lifestyle.

I think each year group is different. Different personalities. Therefore what works in one year, will not work in another year.

Imperial have a new Hall of Residence in North Acton. only the very rich live anywhere near Imperial. After year 1, students are living all over London, according to what they can afford, and commuting. What people could afford 20 years ago is way off target now. London is mega expensive. Kings College has halls in Elephant and Castle! You could live almost anywhere.

Clearly Imperial suits some students very well. I think it suits well off students extremely well. Others may feel a little bit out of it.

The quality of Imperial is obviously first class, but with a smaller friendship pool and living expenses and the displacement of 2nd and 3rd year students all over London, it is not right for everyone. There is more to choosing a university than the PR from that university with its very rosy glow!

[amirrorimage]

Interesting perspectives.

maryso I would doubt that my DC would be way above the other students but would like the opportunity of more discursive type tutorials facilitated by academics who encouraged this and other students who would participate. As pointed out before this may be a pipe dream due to the slog of physics course content.

[minijoeyjojo]

I went to imperial 12 years ago and absolutely loved it. I didn't do physics, but some of my friends did. Whilst there were lots of international students, I found there were very few who fitted the 'stay in your room and not socialise' stereotype.

I honestly think it's a fabulous place to study. For me it was as close as you'll get to a campus university in London, pretty much everything is all together in those few blocks of South Ken. There are loads of clubs to join and we had an absolute blast making the most of London living.

The courses were hard, but then you expect that from one of the worlds leading science universities. The science facilities are amazing though. I remember looking around Warwick and them proudly showing off their electron microscope. Imperial had 30 of them! It was in a different league!! It's absolutely fantastic to have on your CV, none of my friends have ever struggled to find excellent jobs and I loved that when inevitably all your uni friends get jobs in London you were all still together.

I still have a huge group of Imperial people that I am very close friends with and will be for life and I met my DH there. I really disagree that it's lacking in social life in any way! Those people with international sounding American accents are my good friends and all round fantastic people.

[amirrorimage]

Thanks bojorjoo. The amount of potential time spent commuting during early student life is rather off putting (to me at least).

[japanesegarden]

Why wouldn't KCL have halls in elephant and castle? It's only 2 stops on the Bakerloo line from Waterloo, which is where much of KCL is. There are worse commutes!

[amirrorimage]

It sounds as though there are a fair number of posters who loved Imperial as students socially as well as academically more than 10 years ago (plus an appreciation of its lab resources and research reputation)
I still can't get a handle on whether that is reality now for non wealthy, UK students. Experience conveyed by posters from present students does sound more negative.

[user1471428657]

in the sciences those who end up lecturing, do so because they haven't been able to hack it as scientists.

This isn't true in Physics. In good (i.e. Russell group and equivalent) departments, at any given time a handful of researchers will have fellowships (or sufficient grant income) to 'buy out' their teaching. However the majority of permanent staff (including even Fellows of the Royal Society) will be lecturing (and supervising undergraduate projects & running tutorials etc. etc.).

[minijoeyjojo]

I can't speak for now, but I certainly wasn't a wealthy student! From a small town with a pretty useless state school.

We did have to make compromises when picking accommodation, generally we stayed in ex council places as they were cheaper and often had 3 people in a 2 bed flat with one person using the lounge as a bedroom. It enabled us to live in fairly close proximity to college - South Ken/Chelsea etc.

[Surferbabe]

I have friends who have studied at IC and I have a post graduate degree (humanities) from UCL.

IC is very international and a cutting edge top science university. Your ds must be very good and hard working to have been offered a place, congratulations.

I have read the ft with huge interest.

Lodon is amazing, vibrant, cultural and all the rest of it but it is not for the faint hearted. Young students have to quickly learn to be self-reliant and yy to commuting longish distances on crowded tubes, it's expensive going out etc. etc.

All this is only worth it and doable if and only if you want to be at a cutting edge world class university and engage with people from all over the world. Those Chinese students some people seem to be dismissive of may turn out to be outstanding professional contacts in the future. I doubt that there is zero contact between foreign nationals and UK born students; sure people may gravitate to people who speak their own native language but there will be interactions in the tutor groups, prosily group work the student bar etc. etc.

What I'm trying to say is that if your dc is as hesitant asOP about the international aspect of IC he should give it a miss because he would be miserable. I believe for the right candidate, bright, talented, self reliant, resilient and open-minded who embraces the world out there IC will be outstanding.

Sadly I almost get the sense that OP wishes IC didn't have so many foreign students (which of course would make it less of a weld class institution). To me that shows a rather closed mind. In my opinion.

[Surferbabe]

*world class excuse the bad typing

[amirrorimage]

Surferbabe thanks. My DC (who is not particularly hardworking at the moment but is happy to be) is not hesitant of international students (otherwise London would not be a draw) just finding that the socialising during course hours will be more of an effort than fun.
My OP was cut short and therefore badly worded at the end. DC's misgivings (arising from IC's reputation amongst state school classmates) were reinforced by fellow interviewees being very quiet and therefore hard work to talk to.
IC may not care about it's reputation amongst U.K. state students but it is a shame if more than a few are put off by it's reputation if it really is that good a place for an undergraduate degree. They may well being put off from the evidence of the dwindling number of home students going there in the last 5 years. That was my point about information from the IC admissions statistics (which to be fair includes postgraduates)

[amirrorimage]

'They may well be being put off in view of the evidence'

[amirrorimage]

Those Chinese students some people seem to be dismissive of may turn out to be outstanding professional contacts in the future.
I think that this summarises some of the views on this thread which are biased towards future career networking and CV. Important of course (although less so understandably for a 17 year old teenager) but is that negating the rumoured disadvantages of IC? The 'right candidate, open-minded with resilience' could be translated as 'the candidate who sees the career advantages of IC and is prepared to be miserable or push really hard socially in order to get them. '

[Surferbabe]

17 is so, so young isn't it? If your dc has offers from other top universities in his field, perhaps he might want to consider doing a post graduate degree at IC instead?

I'd say that if having a close knit community is important to him at this stage perhaps a university in a smaller place would be more suitable. London, and its universities are something else. I have missed out on the more tight-knit student experience as I did my UG and both PG degrees in London. It is global and one can feel lonely and overwhelmed as a student in London.

Accommodation is expensive and a bit rubbish (ime) and I wonder sometimes what would have been if I had had a more 'typical' student experience in a smaller place. I did make a few life long friends and met DH at the end of my UG course though.

There were times when the commute and house share in shitty houses was a huge challenge mentally though.

OTH it's IC, it is a once in a lifetime opportunity unhelpful.